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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old September 8 2012, 08:04 PM   #61
tighr
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Re: A Warp Fighter

I would say the reason we never hear about a Captain's Yacht on TNG has more to do with Chekhov's Gun than it does with a Yacht not existing. There was never a plot reason to discuss the Yacht, so it was never brought up. We finally see a Yacht in ST: Insurrection, which means it existed in First Contact and in Nemesis, but likewise was never brought up. It would be too complicated to try and implicate that the Yacht was added to the Ent-E prior to the events of Insurrection, and then silently removed afterwards.
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Old September 8 2012, 09:17 PM   #62
blssdwlf
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Since we saw quantum torps fired from that bulge in First Contact and in Insurrection is now a Captain's Yacht does it fire quantum torps in later movies? Or was it originally a quantum torp launcher and in Insurrection turned into only the yacht and the launcher moved?
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Old September 9 2012, 12:02 AM   #63
Crazy Eddie
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo wrote: View Post
The best way to go might have been to remove all the runabouts. They were the reason the Odyssey was stuck with fighting at impulse to begin with!
Odyssey was fighting at impulse because fighting at warp is EXTREMELY rare post TOS.

That also doesn't answer the question, does it?
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Old September 9 2012, 12:09 AM   #64
tighr
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Re: A Warp Fighter

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Since we saw quantum torps fired from that bulge in First Contact and in Insurrection is now a Captain's Yacht does it fire quantum torps in later movies? Or was it originally a quantum torp launcher and in Insurrection turned into only the yacht and the launcher moved?
If I recall, the torpedoes were fired from slightly above where the Yacht docks, so no.

The Enterprise-E also was supposed to have 24 decks, but dialog in First Contact talks about a 26th deck, and dialog in Nemesis talks about a 29th deck (where the Viceroy dies by falling down into an abyss... from the 29th deck.) The Enterprise-A was only supposed to have about 20-ish decks, yet the turbolift went up to around deck 80...

Sometimes, things are mistakes.
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Old September 9 2012, 12:13 AM   #65
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo wrote: View Post
That would in any case be at the threshold level where we'd have to start believing in Porsches and rubber ducks and "Medical Insurance Remaining" readouts and Lorem Ipsum in general. Not enough to overturn the plotwise evidence for the lack of such a craft aboard the E-D.

Timo Saloniemi
I have the official blueprints for the Enterprise D and there is a Captain's yaht, though I think Picard did not use it, it is part of the starship and detaches much like the saucer section does, which only occurred twice in the series.
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Old September 9 2012, 12:18 AM   #66
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Re: A Warp Fighter

tighr wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Other than the fact that they were never needed before, and were never seen again. Fighters don't seem to be in any way tactically valid in traditional space combat, which maybe explains why the Scimitar never launched any of its Scorpion class attack flyers against the Enterprise despite having dozens of them in its shuttlebay.
Your argument makes no sense. Not having seen something before is not evidence of it not existing, its simply absence of evidence.
From which its absence can be directly inferred: you would expect there be evidence of them if they were in use earlier.

It's like if you told me the ancient greeks had automobiles and jet fighters. There's no evidence that they did, and that's not the sort of thing that would have existed without leaving a trace of itself.

We never saw the space stations Deep Space 1, Deep Space 2, Deep Space 6, or Deep Space 8 on screen, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts they exist in-universe.
Yes, we can bet this because OTHER deep space stations were mentioned and it stands to reason there would be more of them. We can take a pretty good guess that space stations like Deep Space 5 existed some time in the mid to late 24th century because that is when we first hear about them.

Was there a Deep Space Two back in the 23rd century? Were the DS stations active during Kirk's time? Probably not, since we do hear a mention of someting called Deep Space Station K7" which is otherwise simply referred to as "Station K7."

We never see the Captain's Yacht on TNG, but the Enterprise-D had one.
We don't know that at all. It's referenced in the TNG manual and in backstage materials for Voyager, but neither of them are ever used. We can likewise infer their absence, because in light of all the many appearances of shuttles and auxiliary craft (TNG even features a runabout) the absence of the Captain's Yacht or Aeroshuttle is particularly conspicuous. In the case of Voyager, they actually chose to build a whole new ship rather than deploy the Aeroshuttle that was supposedly purpose built for exactly that type of mission; the simplest explanation is they don't really HAVE an aeroshuttle and that thing on the bottom of the saucer is just an oddly-shaped sensor array.

And why would the Scimitar need to launch their Scorpions against Enterprise? There would be no tactical reason to launch them.
Exactly. There is no tactical reason to launch fighters in ship to ship combat. Unless you're incredibly desperate and heavily outnumbered (which the Maquis, the Bajorans and Starfleet were when they used them).

Thus they were never needed before -- by Starfleet, at least -- and would not REALLY be needed again once the Klingons joined the fray.
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Old September 9 2012, 12:21 AM   #67
Crazy Eddie
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Mars wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
That would in any case be at the threshold level where we'd have to start believing in Porsches and rubber ducks and "Medical Insurance Remaining" readouts and Lorem Ipsum in general. Not enough to overturn the plotwise evidence for the lack of such a craft aboard the E-D.

Timo Saloniemi
I have the official blueprints for the Enterprise D and there is a Captain's yaht, though I think Picard did not use it, it is part of the starship and detaches much like the saucer section does, which only occurred twice in the series.
Actually the saucer separated three times (four if you include Generations). And the official blueprints are not considered canon.
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Old September 9 2012, 01:56 AM   #68
blssdwlf
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Re: A Warp Fighter

tighr wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Since we saw quantum torps fired from that bulge in First Contact and in Insurrection is now a Captain's Yacht does it fire quantum torps in later movies? Or was it originally a quantum torp launcher and in Insurrection turned into only the yacht and the launcher moved?
If I recall, the torpedoes were fired from slightly above where the Yacht docks, so no.
Thanks. I also checked and it would appear that the launcher is on that dark band of the bulge. We get a good close-up of it in "First Contact". The launch tube must be very compact since the yacht occupies the space immediately behind it. So it probably is top-fed. That same launcher is fired again in "Nemesis".

One more edit: it does appear that the nacelles of the yacht in "First Contact" are shorter (or start further back) than the ones in "Insurrection" (plus the yacht lower part looks more smooth out as well.)

tighr wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-E also was supposed to have 24 decks, but dialog in First Contact talks about a 26th deck, and dialog in Nemesis talks about a 29th deck (where the Viceroy dies by falling down into an abyss... from the 29th deck.) The Enterprise-A was only supposed to have about 20-ish decks, yet the turbolift went up to around deck 80...

Sometimes, things are mistakes.
Or they are not mistakes at all. Why can't the E-E have 30+ decks?

As far as the E-A from "Final Frontier", it is a deliberate mistake as they took great pains to point out how poorly assembled it was. The turbolift deck markings repeat itself so it would not be unusual for it to go up to the number 80 as a result of shoddy workmanship, in-universe that is.

Last edited by blssdwlf; September 9 2012 at 03:08 AM.
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Old September 9 2012, 01:53 PM   #69
Mars
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Re: A Warp Fighter

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
That would in any case be at the threshold level where we'd have to start believing in Porsches and rubber ducks and "Medical Insurance Remaining" readouts and Lorem Ipsum in general. Not enough to overturn the plotwise evidence for the lack of such a craft aboard the E-D.

Timo Saloniemi
I have the official blueprints for the Enterprise D and there is a Captain's yaht, though I think Picard did not use it, it is part of the starship and detaches much like the saucer section does, which only occurred twice in the series.
Actually the saucer separated three times (four if you include Generations). And the official blueprints are not considered canon.
So am I to assume that the Enterprise doesn't have bathrooms in the official cannon, since they don't show them?
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Old September 9 2012, 04:52 PM   #70
blssdwlf
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Toilets, and the lack of toilets were mentioned once in DS9 and five times in Enterprise. Bathrooms are spoken of and/or partially seen as well in the various series.
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Old September 9 2012, 07:16 PM   #71
Crazy Eddie
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Mars wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post

I have the official blueprints for the Enterprise D and there is a Captain's yaht, though I think Picard did not use it, it is part of the starship and detaches much like the saucer section does, which only occurred twice in the series.
Actually the saucer separated three times (four if you include Generations). And the official blueprints are not considered canon.
So am I to assume that the Enterprise doesn't have bathrooms in the official cannon, since they don't show them?
Bathrooms, yes. We've seen as much even in TNG. Just not toilets. Considering whatever they've got on a starship has to be designed to accommodate any conceivable species of any conceivable configuration that would need to use the head, it could be that you're supposed stick your ass/tail/ovipositor/whatever in a specialized replicator slot, do your business and let the transporter beam it away.
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Old September 10 2012, 11:31 AM   #72
Timo
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Re: A Warp Fighter

As far as the Captain's Yacht goes, there were pressing reasons to show or mention it in episodes like "Samaritan Snare", where it's a big deal the Captain goes on a personal ride. It was not shown or mentioned. So we either have to invent an explanation that allows it to exist but be unavailable, which is fine if we want to believe in it existing for some other reason (but there is none), or just abandon the idea altogether.

(where the Viceroy dies by falling down into an abyss... from the 29th deck.)
Why would he stay on Deck 29? He was going to abduct Picard, who was on Deck 1. He walked to his meeting with Riker, who also walked. So if anything, the action would be on Deck 14 or thereabouts.

Although since the Viceroy was in a hurry, he would not have slowed down to a walk until he was almost at his destination - which might place the meeting much closer to Deck 1. Whereas Riker obviously had no clear idea where the intruders were (battle damage?) - meaning he would have no reason to go all the way down since he'd know the intruders would be coming up at least some of the way (why else intrude?), but he wouldn't have a good reason to step out of the turbolift at any specific deck as such. So, the question isn't so much "where did the meeting take place?" but "why did the meeting take place to begin with?"...

We might speculate the turbolifts were under the control of the ship's crew and thus the intruders were forced to use the corridors - and further that the corridors were locked in a way that forced the intruders to a confrontation at a specific location. That would be Internal Security 101, really. But that makes one wonder why the security officer pressing the appropriate buttons did not also activate forcefields that would trap the intruders, deploy stun gas, or evacuate breathing air. If "battle damage" is to be our answer to all these questions, then "battle damage" would also be the reason both the villains and the heroes walk all the way - hence they meet on Deck 14.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old September 11 2012, 11:45 AM   #73
Mars
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo wrote: View Post
As far as the Captain's Yacht goes, there were pressing reasons to show or mention it in episodes like "Samaritan Snare", where it's a big deal the Captain goes on a personal ride. It was not shown or mentioned. So we either have to invent an explanation that allows it to exist but be unavailable, which is fine if we want to believe in it existing for some other reason (but there is none), or just abandon the idea altogether.

(where the Viceroy dies by falling down into an abyss... from the 29th deck.)
Why would he stay on Deck 29? He was going to abduct Picard, who was on Deck 1. He walked to his meeting with Riker, who also walked. So if anything, the action would be on Deck 14 or thereabouts.

Although since the Viceroy was in a hurry, he would not have slowed down to a walk until he was almost at his destination - which might place the meeting much closer to Deck 1. Whereas Riker obviously had no clear idea where the intruders were (battle damage?) - meaning he would have no reason to go all the way down since he'd know the intruders would be coming up at least some of the way (why else intrude?), but he wouldn't have a good reason to step out of the turbolift at any specific deck as such. So, the question isn't so much "where did the meeting take place?" but "why did the meeting take place to begin with?"...

We might speculate the turbolifts were under the control of the ship's crew and thus the intruders were forced to use the corridors - and further that the corridors were locked in a way that forced the intruders to a confrontation at a specific location. That would be Internal Security 101, really. But that makes one wonder why the security officer pressing the appropriate buttons did not also activate forcefields that would trap the intruders, deploy stun gas, or evacuate breathing air. If "battle damage" is to be our answer to all these questions, then "battle damage" would also be the reason both the villains and the heroes walk all the way - hence they meet on Deck 14.

Timo Saloniemi
The Enterprise has shuttles, there is no reason to use a yacht, also flying in a yacht is an advertisement that some important person is there, its like a general riding on a horse amongst the infantry, any enemy with a little bit of brains would know who to shoot at. My guess is Picard didn't want to wear such a huge "bullseye" on his back.
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Old September 11 2012, 12:59 PM   #74
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Re: A Warp Fighter

I thought the captain's yacht on the Enterprise-D was a non-utility craft reserved solely for special diplomatic functions and was was the equivalent of a limo--luxurious for VIPs, but not much else.
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Old September 11 2012, 01:09 PM   #75
Mars
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Re: A Warp Fighter

^ That's right, a very important person, so what's an enemy Romulan going to do if he sees the Captain's yacht separate out from the Enterprise when they are in battle?
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