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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 4 2012, 01:42 AM   #61
Brolan
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

BillJ wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
M'rk, son of Mogh wrote: View Post
I don't know who made this chart, but it shows the ratings for all of the Trek seasons in graph form.

The premier for DS9 was the highest rated Trek episode ever it seems, but then it was quite the drop after and a continuous trend down with a few upticks here and there.

What a sad image.
The legacy of oversaturation.
I always chuckle when I read something like this. Over saturation apparently only affects Trek while leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones unaffected.

I think it reflects audiences just getting bored with standard Trek storytelling. It works for fans, but I think the wider audience wants something new and exciting.
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Old September 4 2012, 01:53 AM   #62
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Brolan wrote: View Post

I think it reflects audiences just getting bored with standard Trek storytelling. It works for fans, but I think the wider audience wants something new and exciting.
If that was the case, then DS9 should've seen an increase in ratings instead of sliding downward like the later two series.
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Old September 4 2012, 02:27 AM   #63
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Brolan wrote: View Post
leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones
Those shows don't require having any brains to enjoy.
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Old September 4 2012, 06:34 AM   #64
Ryan8bit
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Brolan wrote: View Post
I always chuckle when I read something like this. Over saturation apparently only affects Trek while leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones unaffected.
Actually, each of those shows has seen a decline. CSI: Miami was canceled, and each of their shows if plotted on a graph would look the same as Star Trek.
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Old September 4 2012, 05:43 PM   #65
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
I always chuckle when I read something like this. Over saturation apparently only affects Trek while leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones unaffected.
Actually, each of those shows has seen a decline. CSI: Miami was. canceled, and each of their shows if plotted on a graph would look the same as Star Trek.
And none of those shows had heavily advertised movies coming out at the same time like trek did.
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Old September 5 2012, 02:22 AM   #66
Brolan
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
I always chuckle when I read something like this. Over saturation apparently only affects Trek while leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones unaffected.
Actually, each of those shows has seen a decline. CSI: Miami was canceled, and each of their shows if plotted on a graph would look the same as Star Trek.
All shows decline and fall. Each of those base shows had vastly more viewers than Trek and still managed to spin off shows that, again, had vastly more viewers than Trek. My point is: over saturation is not what killed Trek. If people like your product they will keep watching. You must look elsewhere.
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Old September 5 2012, 05:18 AM   #67
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Brolan wrote: View Post

All shows decline and fall.
Ahem, TNG didn't. If anything the ratings only increased over time right until the last episode. The little image above shows that.

I'm pretty sure Breaking Bad's ratings have only increased with every season, and the final half season is coming up next year.

There's probably plenty of other shows that never declined in ratings before ending.

(Not sure if what I'm saying really adds anything to either of the two sides to this little disagreement, but I still wanted to point that out. )
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Old September 5 2012, 01:18 PM   #68
MacLeod
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

They'll no doubt be possible several factors to consider

A Possible general trend to falling audiance numbers
Greater competition
Audiances wanting shows to hit the ground running
When TNG came out, it had virtually no competition in the genre, from the early 90's more and more Sci-Fi was being produced.
Increasing costs
Decreasing Ad revenue
Not taking risks and playing it overly safe.
Increase use of time delayed viewing, so those not counting into the final rating.
Poor timeslots

etc...
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Old September 7 2012, 02:42 PM   #69
ajac09
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Brolan wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
I always chuckle when I read something like this. Over saturation apparently only affects Trek while leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones unaffected.
Actually, each of those shows has seen a decline. CSI: Miami was canceled, and each of their shows if plotted on a graph would look the same as Star Trek.
All shows decline and fall. Each of those base shows had vastly more viewers than Trek and still managed to spin off shows that, again, had vastly more viewers than Trek. My point is: over saturation is not what killed Trek. If people like your product they will keep watching. You must look elsewhere.

say that to Family guy and simpsons lol
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Old September 8 2012, 01:49 AM   #70
Brolan
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

ajac09 wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post

Actually, each of those shows has seen a decline. CSI: Miami was canceled, and each of their shows if plotted on a graph would look the same as Star Trek.
All shows decline and fall. Each of those base shows had vastly more viewers than Trek and still managed to spin off shows that, again, had vastly more viewers than Trek. My point is: over saturation is not what killed Trek. If people like your product they will keep watching. You must look elsewhere.

say that to Family guy and simpsons lol
Have you seen The Simpsons lately? Definitely a decline there.
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Old September 8 2012, 02:46 PM   #71
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

This debate has gone on time and time again.

A Possible general trend to falling audiance numbers
Greater competition
Audiances wanting shows to hit the ground running
When TNG came out, it had virtually no competition in the genre, from the early 90's more and more Sci-Fi was being produced.
Increasing costs
Decreasing Ad revenue
Not taking risks and playing it overly safe.
Increase use of time delayed viewing, so those not counting into the final rating.
Poor timeslots
Let me discuss several of these.

- Greater competition. For DS9 vs. TNG yes. TNG was on the air with some sci-fi shows (IIRC, Out of This World, War of the Worlds, Superboy) but in the '80s, most of the syndication was sitcoms like Too Close for Comfort, Punky Brewster, Charles in Charge, Mama's Family, et al.

DS9 initially just had Baywatch & Highlander as notable rivals (Highlander's ratings were always meh to weak. If not for international ratings, it would've been cancelled. It was lower than B5 and the other PTEN shows and lower than the formal synd. cancellation threshold). Over on PTEN, Time Trax and later Babylon 5 were competition. By 1995, fantasy genre shows appeared (Hercules, Xena) and there was a glut of syndicated action shows by the 96-97 season (you might want to consider other action shows competition. IIRC, Renegade was up there, beneath Baywatch, both of which were beneath DS9). But, TNG was #1 in syndication during its run and when it went off the air, DS9 inherited that crown. DS9 had that crown stolen from it by Hercules, then Xena, but during its entire run, DS9 was in the top 3 for syndicated shows (that weren't judge shows, game shows, or talk shows, or cartoons).

- Hitting the ground running? The pilot got spectacular ratings, Season 1 was very lackluster though. There were many many reports online of people returning by Season 3 or 4, but they didn't reverse the overall downward trend season by season. I think that's a myth or something only applicable to newer shows. With the way entertainment options were in the '90s, say one cool autumn afternoon on the weekend in 1995, is a viewer going to gripe "This 3 year old show didn't hit the ground running. I remember that. I'm not going to watch" or are they going to say "Meh. Nothing else better is on. This is the most interesting thing"? But yes, a dull Season 1 really hurt viewers.

- Increasing costs? Not sure. Never heard this was an issue with any syndicated series from that time except for Xena. Hercules was the actor wanting to get back to the US and not waste away on the far side of the world (yes, he sure went on to greatness with a US-Canadian sci-fi show and a movie that ended up almost killing him).

- Decreasing ad revenue. No! Ad revenue grew significantly over the mid-late '90s. This is what partly fueled the syndication boom in action hours in the '90s. The ad revenue imploded over the 2000-01 season (worst year for selling advertising in 50 years. That's what I saw in print in trade magazines online). It was one component of what ended the '80s/90s syndication boom (another was international financing drying up, particularly in Canada a year or two later. DS9, VOY, B5 were American, Hollywood/LA-based productions but hordes of syndicated shows were filmed in Vancouver, Toronto, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Florida, Mexico. Even the top first-run show in synd, Andromeda, was almost cancelled despite decent ratings for the time because of financing issues. Others shows were cancelled because the funding couldn't be secured. Notice Andromeda only got a Season 5 with Sci-Fi Channel providing some funding. Stargate SG-1/Atlantis could air in synd because they were second-run).

- Playing it safe. Kind of funny comment for the Trek show many feel was the only show to take risks until Enterprise with Season 3. The safe route would have been making it much more TNG-esque, not turning Sisko edgier (they went full-Hawk when they allowed him to save his head and grow a goatee).

- Delayed viewing. People did not Tivo DS9 during its original run, people did not watch it online. If you had a Nielsen box, they might have counted it if you weren't there and recorded it. Not sure how their policies were. Tape-delayed viewing was big for syndicated shows airing overnight (like B5 later on, B5 earlier on in more rural markets, many syndicated shows later on, like in the '00s). From everything I've seen of DS9's schedule (admittedly, I've seen more thorough records for B5 & Highlander than for DS9 past Season 1), the hours weren't that bad for most people.

- Poor timeslots. Not early on and DS9 was generally immune to it. When DS9 premiered, only Fox gobbled up some independent stations. The real damage was done when UPN & WB gobbled up independent stations to build their network. With the loss of independence, weeknight timeslots used for syndication vanished. But even UPN & WB had weekends still open (well, WB claimed Sunday) and it took a few seasons for these two to claim all weeknight timeslots.

Generally, until the late '90s, in most big markets, the top syndicated shows (DS9, Hercules, Xena, TNG) got ideal spots on the schedule in terms of syndication/their audience. This usually was Saturday or Sunday afternoons, evenings or a weeknight timeslot when they were available. As the number of syndicated shows grew, many got pushed to late-night & overnight timeslots. Only once a wave of sitcoms entered syndication around 1998 did even large markets see the top syndicated shows pushed to odd hours. Even B5 for most of its run, avoided overnight timeslots in the top 50 or so markets with rare exception (Season 4 it started to change and the last 4 episodes were more often exiled to no man's land, a result of B5's ever-screwy schedule).



DS9 got the ratings it did because TNG had exceptional, anomalous ratings for a sci-fi series in syndication, because it had pretty good timeslots all things considered, and being a franchise show with a dedicated following and having some appeal to non-hardcore fans (the actual number of diehards was well below the ratings. Why would legions of Trek fans bolt from DS9 as Worf comes on board, as the Dominion war heats up, as the final season starts? I use DS9 because overall, past Seasons 1-2, it had far less complaints than VOY, ENT), as well as having top-notch production values for an off-network series, and cable not being competitive in the '90s with broadcast television. Syndication had a lower ratings cap due to off-primetime scheduling, high odds of pre-emption for sports (compared to network tv) and airing on less watched stations (independent, WB, UPN) but during every season, DS9 pulled in great numbers for that field. DS9 would have been renewed for a Season 8 if it wanted one. If Voyager aired in syndication, it would've been in the top 4 (and later top 3) during its run (VOY's ratings beat Buffy's ratings each season they were matched up BTW). Let me put this in italics: DS9's numbers were great for the field of syndication for the time. Extremely few syndicated shows pulled in numbers respectable or acceptable for networks (TNG, Sea Hunt, Highway Patrol). And even then, their numbers weren't great for networks.

Syndicated market fell apart due to cable competition (especially as it produced first-run content, but mainly due to increasing numbers of people with cable), crash in ad revenue, financing drying up for internationally-funded/filmed shows,, shows being pushed to odd hours (a result of stations reacting to declining ratings by doing something that would push their ratings down even further [because a show's audience will invariably shrink if it's put in an overnight timeslot]), and network shows being packaged after 5 or so seasons for strip syndication or weekend airings (e.g. X-Files, Seinfeld, ER, Friends) which pulled in higher numbers than many first-run shows. This last point is what ended the syndication boom of the '50s and very early '60s. Now, cartoon syndication, that ended in the late '90s for very different reasons.


And some shows ended off with among their highest ratings. I Love Lucy, Andy Griffith Show, Seinfeld are the only shows that went out on top, every other show saw a decline for their final season, even TNG. It's just that TNG's final season had very good ratings for syndication.

Simpsons' ratings are way down. Networks had to keep lowering the cancellation threshold due to cable and the internet siphoning away viewers (even internet surfing before web 2.0, Youtube, Hulu appeared was siphoning away tv viewers). All shows have seen their ratings decline. You'd have quite a laugh if you'd compare Lost's ratings to '90s shows and see how much more hype and acclaim it had compared to comparably rated shows from 10 years earlier.
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Old September 8 2012, 04:23 PM   #72
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Diogenes5 wrote: View Post
T
So while yes, tv is dominated by reality tv and procedurals, there have been way more successful serialized shows in the last decade than there were in say the 80's and 90's, and DS9 (along with B5) help set the path. I would say that DS9 set the path even more (and I am a fan of both) only because JMS basically wrote all of B5 by himself (and hasn't done much tv since) whereas most of the writing staff of DS9 has been very influential: Ira Behr produced the 4400 and is currently working on Alphas. Ron Moore did Battlestar Galactica. A lot of the other writers are on successful shows as well.

So for the few people that know what DS9 is, there is a newfound appreciation for its character and plot development arc over several seasons. I wish it were enough to make a movie for the show but alas that will never happen. Hopefully, it will be enough to allow for a blu-ray remastering.


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I dont really agree that ds9 is getting more popular - it may do if and when the blu-rays have been released but not at the moment. Even in the uk, it is just not shown anywere.

What i do want to comment on is that i feel DS9 is BSG older brother. Ron Moore and the others did something with ds9 which was different then we have ever seen before . It was rough, at times it was brutal and some episodes were not at all nice to watch ( the siege of ar558 comes to mind ) but without ds9 and maybe firefly, i dont think Battlestar would have been half as good as it was.
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Old September 8 2012, 04:51 PM   #73
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Brolan wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post

What a sad image.
The legacy of oversaturation.
I always chuckle when I read something like this. Over saturation apparently only affects Trek while leaving the Law & Orders, CSIs, NCISs, and American Idol clones unaffected.
As Ryan8bit pointed out, their paths are similar to Trek. We'd have to remember that the graph covers two decades' worth of television.

But we don't even have to look that far for evidence: let's remember that the flagship Law & Order was cancelled in 2010, and a year later Criminal Intent was canned. Trial By Jury and LA lasted only one season each, and the only Law & Order on TV since last year is SVU. If anything, Trek has had more success in the spinoff department, but the decline of both franchises is no doubt oversaturation.


craig keith wrote: View Post
What i do want to comment on is that i feel DS9 is BSG older brother. Ron Moore and the others did something with ds9 which was different then we have ever seen before . It was rough, at times it was brutal and some episodes were not at all nice to watch ( the siege of ar558 comes to mind ) but without ds9 and maybe firefly, i dont think Battlestar would have been half as good as it was.
Yeah, I largely agree. DS9 was essentially the training ground for BSG, especially when it came to the complex network of primary and secondary characters. Of course, Moore had far more freedom because the BSG franchise is nowhere near as large as Star Trek, but Moore has said that if he had to remake Star Trek, he'd still keep the tried and true staples like phasers, warp, and transporters. I feel the DS9 writers did a pretty effective job of exploring and deconstructing the Star Trek mythos while using and staying within the limits of established Star Trek rules, and that kind of analysis interests me much more than breaking franchise rules for the sake of shock value and "teh awesome."
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Old September 8 2012, 11:55 PM   #74
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

Cyke101 wrote: View Post

Yeah, I largely agree. DS9 was essentially the training ground for BSG, especially when it came to the complex network of primary and secondary characters. Of course, Moore had far more freedom because the BSG franchise is nowhere near as large as Star Trek, but Moore has said that if he had to remake Star Trek, he'd still keep the tried and true staples like phasers, warp, and transporters. I feel the DS9 writers did a pretty effective job of exploring and deconstructing the Star Trek mythos while using and staying within the limits of established Star Trek rules, and that kind of analysis interests me much more than breaking franchise rules for the sake of shock value and "teh awesome."
That is it exactly, I think largely to do with the fact that rick berman was not involved in the series past season 1. And what infuriated me even more is that when voyager came long and later with ENT they stripped away the work they did with ds9 and just went back to standard trek.

Dont get me wrong Some of Voyager and ENT Was very good but they just didnt learn the lessons that the guys at ds9 did and i think that was the start of trek downfall on tv .. not necessarily the ratings
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Old September 9 2012, 12:18 AM   #75
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Re: DS9's growing popularity

One possible factor to include is how much interferrence did the writers get from the network.
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