Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Captain Shatner · September 6 2012, 10:37 PM

Apart from the weirdness of naming your leader "The Dolmen", there's quite a bigger problem with Elaan of Troiyus. In fact, this problem can in fact be applied to quite a number of Trek episodes. Here it is...

WHY CAN'T THE CREW USE THE REPLICATOR TO MAKE DILITHIUM CRYSTALS???

It appears that the replicator works on the same basis as the transporter, storing "pattern buffers" of different objects to reproduce different objects, mainly food. But you'd think that some enterprising (pun intended!) Starfleet engineer would figure out that you could store other patterns buffers, mainly, dilithium crystals, in the replicator Then you could conjure them up at will...instead of taking them off of a Dolmen's neck....

Harvey · September 6 2012, 10:48 PM

The crew of the original Enterprise didn't have replicators.

T'Girl · September 7 2012, 12:23 AM

Even in the 24th century I don't think replicators can make dilithium crystals.

Rulius · September 7 2012, 02:29 AM

No by the time of the TNG they recrystallize it in the chamber.

nightwind1 · September 7 2012, 05:03 AM

Captain Shatner wrote:

Apart from the weirdness of naming your leader "The Dolmen", there's quite a bigger problem with Elaan of Troiyus. In fact, this problem can in fact be applied to quite a number of Trek episodes. Here it is...

WHY CAN'T THE CREW USE THE REPLICATOR TO MAKE DILITHIUM CRYSTALS???

It appears that the replicator works on the same basis as the transporter, storing "pattern buffers" of different objects to reproduce different objects, mainly food. But you'd think that some enterprising (pun intended!) Starfleet engineer would figure out that you could store other patterns buffers, mainly, dilithium crystals, in the replicator Then you could conjure them up at will...instead of taking them off of a Dolmen's neck....

"Fascinating..."

"...What are these 'replicators' of which you speak?"

Wingsley · September 7 2012, 05:25 AM

Judging by the bizarre nature of replication that took place due to Transporter malfunction in "The Enemy Witihin", it seems highly unlikely a Federation starship can just snap its fingers and "replicate" whatever it wants to perfection. OTOH, in "Catspaw" Korob and Silvia try to tempt Kirk's landing party with plates filled with gemstones, only for Kirk to claim "We could manufacture a ton of these on our ship. They mean nothing to us."

So it wasn't really clear how food, other supplies and spare parts are manufactured aboard space vessels. Did 23rd-century space vessels use replicators or something bulkier and more primitive? You could argue the food dispensers (like the one Kyle used to serve the Air Force security guard in "Tomorrow is Yesterday") were replicators, but there are people who say that TOS had no such technology. Even if the TOS era can be said to exhibit such abilities, it could be readily assumed that supposed replicators of that era would be much more limited than their TNG counterparts.

Indysolo · September 7 2012, 06:07 AM

Stop talking about Elaan's gaping hole!

Neil

Maurice · September 7 2012, 08:34 AM

And now let's see if the OP ever acknowledges their error.

GSchnitzer · September 7 2012, 02:26 PM

There was this interchange with Korob in the episode "Catspaw:"

MCCOY: These look real [regarding the plate full of gemstones].
KOROB: They are, I assure you. Diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires. All the crystalline forms that you cherish above all things. A fortune of them for each of you--if you leave here without further inquiry.
KIRK: We could manufacture a ton of these on our ship. They mean nothing to us.

So, while they are capable of manufacturing diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires--all the crystalline forms that are cherished above all things, evidently (and perplexingly) dilithium is something that can't be manufactured shipboard.

Timo · September 7 2012, 02:38 PM

McCoy seems to honestly believe in a distinction between "real" and "unreal" rubies... And it doesn't seem as if he's pondering whether these things are figments of his imagination.

Does this mean that there still is value in "genuine" gemstones? Well, Kirk certainly seems to think so, when discovering the diamonds in "Arena"! Plus, "gem" is still synonymous with "valuable" for him in a certain episode with a suggestive title.

Why he would say otherwise in this episode is pretty obvious, too. He doesn't just want to indicate that he can't be bought - he wants to thoroughly humiliate his enemies for even suggesting such a thing. A little lie won't hurt him, but hopefully will hurt Korob.

Timo Saloniemi

Doug Otte · September 7 2012, 03:21 PM

I've been nitpicking all over the webz today cos I'm cranky, so let me just contribute:

1) It's "Troyius" not "Troiyus";
2) Dohlman is a title, not a name.

T'Girl · September 7 2012, 06:35 PM

GSchnitzer wrote:

So, while they are capable of manufacturing diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires--all the crystalline forms that are cherished above all things, evidently (and perplexingly) dilithium is something that can't be manufactured shipboard.

We can manufacture synthetic diamonds today, so it no big surpries that the machinery aboard the Enteprise can do the same. They're spectroscopically different than diamonds that come out of the ground (light passes through them differently), and there is debate as too whether they are real.

perplexingly

I'm not sure where I got this, but supposedly dilithium is chemically the same as quartz and if you attempt to fabricate (or replicate) a synthetic dilithium crystal, all you'll get is a piece of quartz. Likely non-canon.

Timo wrote:

Does this mean that there still is value in "genuine" gemstones? Well, Kirk certainly seems to think so, when discovering the diamonds in "Arena"!

The diamonds and other gems that Korob creates with a wave of his wand, and the ones manufactured aboard the Enterprise are "meaningless." Yet the diamonds Kirk discovers on the Arena planets are; An incredible fortune in stones.. Natural are valuable, and manufactured are not. ...

Wingsley · September 7 2012, 09:46 PM

Probably much larger and more obvious plot hols would be (1: how the Engine Room was left unmanned so Kryton could sabotage the ship's dilithium, and (2: who the Enterprise didn't carry some spare dilithium crystals as replacements in case of sabotage or breakdown.

Timo · September 7 2012, 09:52 PM

Lack of dilithium spares is good continuity. Apparently, the stuff is really rare and expensive - and Kirk consumes those crystals in several episodes, quite possibly running out of spares in the process.

FWIW, the last time Kirk was crippled by dilithium shortage, in "Mudd's Women", he had spent the previous episodes at the very edge of the known, in "Where No Man" and "Corbomite Maneuver" by production order (or just "Where No Man" by stardate order), having had no chance to visit a starbase, and was quite plausibly short on supplies. The episode preceding "Elaan of Troyius" in turn was "Immunity Syndrome" where the ship almost completely drained of energy. While the episode did end with our heroes sailing toward the safety of a starbase, "Elaan" opens with the remark that the mission is top secret, and may have diverted our heroes from their intended shore leave.

Timo Saloniemi

Captain Shatner · September 8 2012, 06:57 PM

Several people have pointed out that "replicators" did not exist in TOS. "Food synthesizer," if you will.
Which really doesn't explain:

A) Surely a "food synthesizer" can make more than food...

B) Even if it couldn't, the dilithium pattern buffer could be stored on the transporter, and then Scotty could beam up a rock from a planet's surface. Since the matter is converted into energy and then reconverted back into matter, why not reconvert the rock into dilithium?

September 6 2012, 10:37 PM	#1
Captain Shatner Lieutenant Location: USA	Gaping Hole of Troiyus Apart from the weirdness of naming your leader "The Dolmen", there's quite a bigger problem with Elaan of Troiyus. In fact, this problem can in fact be applied to quite a number of Trek episodes. Here it is... WHY CAN'T THE CREW USE THE REPLICATOR TO MAKE DILITHIUM CRYSTALS??? It appears that the replicator works on the same basis as the transporter, storing "pattern buffers" of different objects to reproduce different objects, mainly food. But you'd think that some enterprising (pun intended!) Starfleet engineer would figure out that you could store other patterns buffers, mainly, dilithium crystals, in the replicator Then you could conjure them up at will...instead of taking them off of a Dolmen's neck....

September 6 2012, 10:48 PM	#2
Harvey Admiral	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus The crew of the original Enterprise didn't have replicators. __________________ "What do you hear, Starbuck?" "Nothing but the rain, sir." "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."

September 7 2012, 12:23 AM	#3
T'Girl Vice Admiral	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus Even in the 24th century I don't think replicators can make dilithium crystals.

September 7 2012, 02:29 AM	#4
Rulius Fleet Captain Location: N.E. Ga.	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus No by the time of the TNG they recrystallize it in the chamber. __________________ "Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves!"

September 7 2012, 05:25 AM	#6
Wingsley Commodore Location: Wingsley	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus Judging by the bizarre nature of replication that took place due to Transporter malfunction in "The Enemy Witihin", it seems highly unlikely a Federation starship can just snap its fingers and "replicate" whatever it wants to perfection. OTOH, in "Catspaw" Korob and Silvia try to tempt Kirk's landing party with plates filled with gemstones, only for Kirk to claim "We could manufacture a ton of these on our ship. They mean nothing to us." So it wasn't really clear how food, other supplies and spare parts are manufactured aboard space vessels. Did 23rd-century space vessels use replicators or something bulkier and more primitive? You could argue the food dispensers (like the one Kyle used to serve the Air Force security guard in "Tomorrow is Yesterday") were replicators, but there are people who say that TOS had no such technology. Even if the TOS era can be said to exhibit such abilities, it could be readily assumed that supposed replicators of that era would be much more limited than their TNG counterparts. __________________ "The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..." -- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

September 7 2012, 06:07 AM	#7
Indysolo Fleet Captain Location: Sunny California	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus Stop talking about Elaan's gaping hole! Neil __________________ "Garret Wang's costume was so 'West Hollywood', I offered to be best man at his wedding." -Walter Koenig on Garret Wang's Of Gods and Men costume

September 7 2012, 08:34 AM	#8
Maurice Rear Admiral Location: Maurice in San Francisco	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus And now let's see if the OP ever acknowledges their error. __________________ * * * "Star Trek…at times sparkled with true ingenuity, and pure science fiction approaches, and at other times was more carnival like, and very much more the creature of television than the creature of a legitimate literary form." —Rod Serling, 1970"

September 7 2012, 02:26 PM	#9
GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus There was this interchange with Korob in the episode "Catspaw:" MCCOY: These look real [regarding the plate full of gemstones]. KOROB: They are, I assure you. Diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires. All the crystalline forms that you cherish above all things. A fortune of them for each of you--if you leave here without further inquiry. KIRK: We could manufacture a ton of these on our ship. They mean nothing to us. So, while they are capable of manufacturing diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires--all the crystalline forms that are cherished above all things, evidently (and perplexingly) dilithium is something that can't be manufactured shipboard. __________________ Greg Schnitzer Co-Executive Producer Star Trek Phase II http://www.startrekphase2.com http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/

September 7 2012, 02:38 PM	#10
Timo Admiral	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus McCoy seems to honestly believe in a distinction between "real" and "unreal" rubies... And it doesn't seem as if he's pondering whether these things are figments of his imagination. Does this mean that there still is value in "genuine" gemstones? Well, Kirk certainly seems to think so, when discovering the diamonds in "Arena"! Plus, "gem" is still synonymous with "valuable" for him in a certain episode with a suggestive title. Why he would say otherwise in this episode is pretty obvious, too. He doesn't just want to indicate that he can't be bought - he wants to thoroughly humiliate his enemies for even suggesting such a thing. A little lie won't hurt him, but hopefully will hurt Korob. Timo Saloniemi

September 7 2012, 03:21 PM	#11
Doug Otte Fleet Captain	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus I've been nitpicking all over the webz today cos I'm cranky, so let me just contribute: 1) It's "Troyius" not "Troiyus"; 2) Dohlman is a title, not a name.

September 7 2012, 09:46 PM	#13
Wingsley Commodore Location: Wingsley	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus Probably much larger and more obvious plot hols would be (1: how the Engine Room was left unmanned so Kryton could sabotage the ship's dilithium, and (2: who the Enterprise didn't carry some spare dilithium crystals as replacements in case of sabotage or breakdown. __________________ "The way that you wander is the way that you choose. / The day that you tarry is the day that you lose. / Sunshine or thunder, a man will always wonder / Where the fair wind blows ..." -- Lyrics, Jeremiah Johnson's theme.

September 7 2012, 09:52 PM	#14
Timo Admiral	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus Lack of dilithium spares is good continuity. Apparently, the stuff is really rare and expensive - and Kirk consumes those crystals in several episodes, quite possibly running out of spares in the process. FWIW, the last time Kirk was crippled by dilithium shortage, in "Mudd's Women", he had spent the previous episodes at the very edge of the known, in "Where No Man" and "Corbomite Maneuver" by production order (or just "Where No Man" by stardate order), having had no chance to visit a starbase, and was quite plausibly short on supplies. The episode preceding "Elaan of Troyius" in turn was "Immunity Syndrome" where the ship almost completely drained of energy. While the episode did end with our heroes sailing toward the safety of a starbase, "Elaan" opens with the remark that the mission is top secret, and may have diverted our heroes from their intended shore leave. Timo Saloniemi

September 8 2012, 06:57 PM	#15
Captain Shatner Lieutenant Location: USA	Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus Several people have pointed out that "replicators" did not exist in TOS. "Food synthesizer," if you will. Which really doesn't explain: A) Surely a "food synthesizer" can make more than food... B) Even if it couldn't, the dilithium pattern buffer could be stored on the transporter, and then Scotty could beam up a rock from a planet's surface. Since the matter is converted into energy and then reconverted back into matter, why not reconvert the rock into dilithium?