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Old September 6 2012, 06:01 PM   #46
sojourner
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
that it's expressly stated that electricity is the only thing that stopped working,
Citation needed? Remember, the google nerd mentioned to the kids that "physics itself had changed". That points to more than just electricity not working. It also probably explains the lack of nuclear plant meltdowns.
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Old September 6 2012, 06:08 PM   #47
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

I suspect that the plane falls the way it does simply because the producers thought it looks "kewl" when it just drops out of the sky like that.
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Old September 6 2012, 06:45 PM   #48
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

aelius wrote: View Post
But the engines stopped working too. And an airliners glide ratio is only a little better than a rock under the best of circumstances.
They can be glided under some conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

And if the plane was not flying straight and level when it happened the loss of engines and loss or serious degradation of control surfaces would probably put it into a flat spin, which is what was depicted on screen.
A spin requires a loss of airspeed as well as a loss of coordination. It's one possible result of a loss of control surfaces, but it would not be instant. It takes time for airspeed to bleed off. Also, while there are a variety of things that can flatten a spin (making it less recoverable), addition of power prior to recovery is the most common one, obviously not a factor here.

And, WW II movies aside, the glide ratio's of most large aircraft suck. Hell, even the F4U Corsair, one of the best FIGHTERS of the war had only a 1 to 1 ratio. Most modern fighters and bombers have no better.
A good glide ratio isn't really compatible with good maneuverability, so it isn't too surprising that fighters suck at gliding. Commercial jets don't have maneuverability as a design goal, so I wouldn't be surprised if they glide a bit better.
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Old September 6 2012, 06:47 PM   #49
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
I suspect that the plane falls the way it does simply because the producers thought it looks "kewl" when it just drops out of the sky like that.
This is the true answer. Because they thought it would look cool.
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Old September 6 2012, 06:50 PM   #50
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
aelius wrote: View Post
But the engines stopped working too.
Ignoring the fact that mechanical and chemical systems are still working just fine and dandy based upon this episode and that it's expressly stated that electricity is the only thing that stopped working, even a 300-ton cube of steel traveling at 500mph before losing its propulsion isn't going to just stop in mid-air and fall straight down.

Again: Straight down. No forward movement whatsoever. And it wasn't even a dive down. It was belly-first.

What's even dumber is that when these planes fell, their lights were still working.
As I stated "flat spin". It is a very common effect of loss of control in aircraft. It is also one of the most difficult to recover from, even under normal conditions. Also, the planes were not simply falling straight down. The were spinning belly down and moving at an angle, probably 20 to 30 degrees. That is extremely normal for a plane suffering complete loss of control.
I know planes always fall nose down in the movies, but those are movies.
Perhaps the people who made the show did just think it looked cool, I don't know. but if they did they actually got it right, even if only by accident.
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Old September 6 2012, 07:12 PM   #51
aelius
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Double post.
Lindley wrote: View Post
aelius wrote: View Post
But the engines stopped working too. And an airliners glide ratio is only a little better than a rock under the best of circumstances.
They can be glided under some conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

I didn't say they were impossible to glide, just that they are very difficult to glide. And something that can be glided a little under good conditions is not going to do well while dealing with a serious loss of control systems. The plane in the article had a hard time with its controls because of the loss of electrical power from the engines. If not for the auxiliary generator that deployed to give them some instruments and power to assist with the hydraulics they never would have made it. An auxiliary generator that would not be available to planes in the show.


And if the plane was not flying straight and level when it happened the loss of engines and loss or serious degradation of control surfaces would probably put it into a flat spin, which is what was depicted on screen.
A spin requires a loss of airspeed as well as a loss of coordination. It's one possible result of a loss of control surfaces, but it would not be instant. It takes time for airspeed to bleed off. Also, while there are a variety of things that can flatten a spin (making it less recoverable), addition of power prior to recovery is the most common one, obviously not a factor here.

As I said above, if the plane was in straight and level flight when the loss of power and control systems occurred a flat spin would be more likely. the planes we got a close look at were near Chicago and thus were less likely to be just loafing along in level flight when it happened.

And, WW II movies aside, the glide ratio's of most large aircraft suck. Hell, even the F4U Corsair, one of the best FIGHTERS of the war had only a 1 to 1 ratio. Most modern fighters and bombers have no better.
A good glide ratio isn't really compatible with good maneuverability, so it isn't too surprising that fighters suck at gliding. Commercial jets don't have maneuverability as a design goal, so I wouldn't be surprised if they glide a bit better.
You might be surprised, but you would be wrong. Airliners have sucky flight characteristics for anything but calm level flight. Airliners are heavy, and while their wings are sufficient to get them into the air they are not designed to be survivable with a total loss of power. That is why all airliners have multiple engines.
Sorry about the Bold type, but I was having trouble with the multi-quote and wanted to distinguish my answers.
Airplanes I know a lot about, computers not so much.
Sorry for the double post, I was trying to edit it into my previous post. As I said, computers...
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Last edited by aelius; September 6 2012 at 07:13 PM. Reason: Double Post
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Old September 6 2012, 07:17 PM   #52
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Haven't seen the show. How exactly does electricity no longer work?
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Old September 6 2012, 07:37 PM   #53
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Any given control input and power level will eventually stabilize to a particular flight characteristic given time. (In other words, Pitch + Power = Performance.) Even if the aircraft is in a turn when controls are lost, it should just continue to turn.

Now, if engine power is lost, then airspeed would bleed off and a stall might result. It's possible the stall could develop into a spin, and in some aircraft designs it could even be a flat spin.

What's confusing me is why engine power would be lost. All else aside, jet turbines don't require electricity to keep them going. Maybe to get them started, but that's all.
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Old September 6 2012, 07:54 PM   #54
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Lindley wrote: View Post
What's confusing me is why engine power would be lost. All else aside, jet turbines don't require electricity to keep them going. Maybe to get them started, but that's all.
Dumb concept and poor execution. It's the only valid answer. Mechanical systems still work (flintlocks, crossbows, modern firearms, etc.). Chemical systems still work (stills, gunpowder, etc.). Fire still works. Hell, even electricity still works, else everyone would be dead and the magical talismans wouldn't be able to power up on their own (and those must be some crazy awesome batteries they have to be able to produce such a powerful effect even 15 years down the line).

The only real explanation is that a wizard did it. And that's about as stupid as it gets.
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Old September 6 2012, 08:04 PM   #55
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Haven't seen the show. How exactly does electricity no longer work?
That's part of the mystery. Or in other words, "A wizard did it".
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Old September 6 2012, 08:07 PM   #56
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

sojourner wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Haven't seen the show. How exactly does electricity no longer work?
That's part of the mystery. Or in other words, "A wizard did it".
So it doesn't work AT ALL anymore?



I love it when authors skip science classes. All for purposes of drama, I'm sure. *shakes head*
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Old September 6 2012, 08:18 PM   #57
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Yes, the fact that electrochemical batteries don't work but human central nervous systems do is inexplicable.
In the Emberverse series the people, having no other explanation, settled somewhat sarcastically on "Alien Space Bats" did it.
That doesn't work here because it was obviously caused by people.
Also Steam power must not work because if it did then there would be steam power all over the place after 15 years. Trains, ships, even road vehicles can be powered by steam. This is a serious change to the laws of physics so profound that it can only be described as "magic"
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Old September 6 2012, 08:18 PM   #58
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Haven't seen the show. How exactly does electricity no longer work?
It read the script.
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Old September 6 2012, 08:22 PM   #59
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Honestly, I think any attempt at explaining the mechanism and effects of the blackout in any rational scientific way is bound to be a futile gesture, and I say that as someone who enjoys doing that myself (see my analysis of the blackout from the trailer here).

This being a JJ Abrams production and a mythology-based series, I suspect we'll get a piecemeal mixture of vague scientific, pseudoscientific, and purely magical terms thrown our way ("The laws of physics changed!" It likely involves mathematical codes somehow, given the "algebra teacher's" --who clearly was more than that-- involvement). Enough to string the audience along as they drag the mythology out season by season (if they get the chance) until we get to the big revelation episode that doesn't actually resolve the mythology in any satisfactory way, but allows fans to argue whether the mythology they were speculating on for multiple seasons was ever meant to be resolved or if it was always just about the journey and the mythology didn't really matter. And I say this as a fan of both Abrams and mythology-based series like Lost, BSG, etc.

I suspect in the end the blackout will have been caused by some kind of satellite-controlled EM field, computer virus, or worldwide nanite infestation that will explain a few of the effects but not make an ounce of sense for all the rest of them. The rule of cool will be the number one motivator for what happens on the show. If it's cooler that people are reduced to muskets, crossbows, and swords when there should be plenty of working modern firearms around (like Gus Fring's handgun), that's what we'll get. If it's cooler that people are riding horses than driving in pre-computerized cars which should still work, that's what we'll get. And if it's cooler that planes fall from the sky vertically (and many of the ones in the background were shown doing just that), that's what they'll do.

Now, leaving the mythology aspects aside, the problem with this pilot was that it was too short. It should have been two hours. With the exception of the twist about the identity of Munroe, I learned absolutely nothing new from this episode that I didn't already know from the four-minute preview shown a while back, which literally gave away every single plot point without any of the extraneous filler. They should have extended the pilot and built up the characters more so they weren't one line ciphers like Plot-Advancing Perpetual Victim Asthma Boy, Algebra Lady Who Knows Things, Comic Relief Google Guy, Rebellious Girl With Heart, Stern Stepmom Who Means Well, Morally Ambiguous Badass Good Guy, Slightly Less Morally Ambiguous Badass Bad Guy, Dead Father Who Knew Things, Obviously Still Alive Mom, and Complex Loyalties Hunger Games Reject.

Putting the focus on the teens as the center of attention might make sense from a demographic standpoint, and it provides the audience with counterparts who are as equally in the dark about the mystery as we are and therefore need it explained to them (us), but I have a feeling it's going to get really tedious in a short amount of time, since I was already on angst overload from the pilot which had hardly any exposition and was just flowing from one action/drama scene to the next. The focus should have preferably been on the uncle from the start, but maybe now that he's been introduced he'll start to take over the narrative more.

While the level of overgrowth might not have been entirely realistic, the scenes with the abandoned, run-down cities and infrastructure were quite impressive. Again, rule of cool trumps realism. I suspect Wrigley Field just gave up the fight to the plants once it realized the Cubs were never going to win another World Series.

Likewise, the fight choreography was superb. While it stretches credibility that the Munroe guys attacked Uncle Badass one at a time or in small groups martial arts movie style instead of all in a rush (although he did kind of break them up), everyone involved still acquitted themselves well with the sword and hand-to-hand fighting. I suspect they had a good deal of instruction before filming. And Hunger Games Understudy was quick and cool on drawing the bow.

It wasn't a great pilot and certainly didn't grab my attention or make me say "wow" the way previous Abrams' produced pilots for Lost and Alias did, but unrealistic though it may be, the setting is interesting enough for me to stick around and see if things improve. Plus, I'll watch Giancarlo Esposito read a menu for an hour, so watching him play a shrewd mostly evil but not completely unreasonable bad guy should be fun. Uncle Badass could develop into someone interesting, and not just an asskicker, especially with his relationship to Munroe and his peripheral knowledge of the mechanism for the blackout.

Anyway, I give the pilot a "B-." Enough to keep me hanging around to see where it goes, but not enough to guarantee my loyalty yet.
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Old September 6 2012, 08:27 PM   #60
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

It's purgatory.

The devil didn't pay the electricity bill.
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