Why is Nemesis hated so much?

[NrobbieC]

Nemesis isn't as bad as it's made out to be imo. It was the first Trek film I saw in the cinema (I was 11 I think). Looking back now, I find Shinzon boring. But I liked the idea of the Remans, I love Romulans (real ridged Romulans mind you) though they deserve much better representation in a movie. And of course, it had Admiral Janeway. I wouldn't change too much about it, though I'd make the antagonist Sela, maybe have a fleet battle, throw in one of those D'deridex beauties.

[teacake]

NrobbieC wrote:

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I wouldn't change too much about it, though I'd make the antagonist Sela, maybe have a fleet battle, throw in one of those D'deridex beauties.

I was not a fan of the Sela storyline but this would have been a huge improvement and much more interesting.

[Lord Garth]

If the action scenes were cut in half and the cut character scenes were restored then there still would've been stupid things about Nemesis but it would've made for a much better film and, in turn, I would've been more willing to overlook plot threads with silly execution like B-4 and Shinzon irrationally going after Earth.

I'm willing to look the other way with a lot of things if the overall quality is high enough. Such as with ST XI.

[AllStarEntprise]

Shinzon didn't irrationally go after Earth. The first scene in the movie establishes that's what Shinzon's motive was. Destroy Earth = Crippling the Federation. It's repeated throughout the film. Shinzon says this to Picard, Picard and Riker both deduce the reason why Shinzon would attack Earth.

I know it seems more logical to attack Romulus because he hates them, but Shinzon has intergalactic aspirations and he can't do that without support from the Romulans.

Star Trek XI's saving grace is the spectacle of the film. The film's big budget makes the world JJ created look incredible. XI is 80% style and 20% substance, the bulk of that substance comes from copying and pasting successful ideas from the previous Trek media.

[Lord Garth]

I've only seen the movie twice, and not recently, so I'll defer to you about Shinzon's motives.

But, while we're talking about it, wouldn't it be more in keeping with Romulan philosophy to wait for the Federation to up the ante to a certain level before going balls-to-the-wall after Earth?

It would make more sense, from a Romulan point of view, for the Federation to fear them than to be destroyed. The resources used to destroy the Federation in an all-out war would bankrupt the Romulans militarily by the end of it. The Federation would be destroyed but at what cost to the Romulans?

Isn't "mutually assured destruction" what's kept the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan situation the way it's been throughout Star Trek? Shifting alliances aside.

[-Brett-]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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Shinzon didn't irrationally go after Earth. The first scene in the movie establishes that's what Shinzon's motive was. Destroy Earth = Crippling the Federation. It's repeated throughout the film. Shinzon says this to Picard, Picard and Riker both deduce the reason why Shinzon would attack Earth.

The premise here is fairly ridiculous. Even putting that aside, simply replacing "Earth" with "the Federation" doesn't help the irrationality.

[AllStarEntprise]

Lord Garth wrote:

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I've only seen the movie twice, and not recently, so I'll defer to you about Shinzon's motives.

But, while we're talking about it, wouldn't it be more in keeping with Romulan philosophy to wait for the Federation to up the ante to a certain level before going balls-to-the-wall after Earth?

It would make more sense, from a Romulan point of view, for the Federation to fear them than to be destroyed. The resources used to destroy the Federation in an all-out war would bankrupt the Romulans militarily by the end of it. The Federation would be destroyed but at what cost to the Romulans?

Isn't "mutually assured destruction" what's kept the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan situation the way it's been throughout Star Trek? Shifting alliances aside.

That's what the Scimitar was for. It's not said in the movie but in the special features of the dvd/bluray the Scimitar is said to have only one purpose which is to destroy planets with the Thalaron Pulse. The Scimitar was built so damn tough in order to take a beating from other starships and still fire the thalaron pulse. If Earth fell the rest of the Federation would be weakend since Earth is the HQ of Starfleet.

Not sure if this was offical or unofficial but I recall somewhere the reason some Romulan commanders wanted to attack Earth now was about power and expansion in the Quadrant since the conclusion of the Dominion War. The Klingons taking heavy losses during the war, it was to come down to a conflict between Starfleet and the Romulans. Given Romulan nature to wait, observe patiently, then decide a course of action is the reason the Romulan Senate was killed. The Praetor didn't want to risk war with Federation, and after he denied Shinzon's proposal he was killed via thalaron.

[NrobbieC]

Nemesis does have the distinction of implying LGBT crewmembers in Starfleet.

[Galileo7]

teacake wrote:

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I was not a fan of the Sela storyline but this would have been a huge improvement and much more interesting.

Agree, more of that would have helped.

[BillJ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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Nemesis does have the distinction of implying LGBT crewmembers in Starfleet.

Where?

[NrobbieC]

Before Data starts singing he addresses the crowd "ladies and gentlemen and invited transgendered species."

[Mr_Homn]

NrobbieC wrote:

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Before Data starts singing he addresses the crowd "ladies and gentlemen and invited transgendered species."

That doesn't sound inclusive of transgendered humans at all, actually.

[BillJ]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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That doesn't sound inclusive of transgendered humans at all, actually.

Bingo.

[NrobbieC]

I would assume sex change operations are not exclusive to humans

[BillJ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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I would assume sex change operations are not exclusive to humans