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Old September 3 2012, 11:41 AM   #46
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

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^ I didn't say that the loss wouldn't have happened, so of course she was and would still be dead. The feeling of loss was still very real, and you don't just get over that in a day. If they had come to some kind of better footing a few seasons later, that would have made more sense because Sisko would have had time to grieve and start to rebuild his life and learn to let go of some of his anger and resentment. It's too bad that episode didn't happen, but it wasn't necessary because you could tell he'd done that as time went by anyway.
Getting over the feeling of loss and forgiving Picard for something Sisko logically knows that Picard had absolutely no control over are two different things entirely.

He could have still forgived Picard, realized they were both victims of the borg, which they were, and still felt plenty of pain. Perhaps it would be even worse now because he had no one to blame. Sometimes pain is easier to deal with when you have a scapegoat.

It would have made Sisko seem like less of an ass and more likeable in the first episode.
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Old September 3 2012, 12:43 PM   #47
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

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^ I didn't say that the loss wouldn't have happened, so of course she was and would still be dead. The feeling of loss was still very real, and you don't just get over that in a day. If they had come to some kind of better footing a few seasons later, that would have made more sense because Sisko would have had time to grieve and start to rebuild his life and learn to let go of some of his anger and resentment. It's too bad that episode didn't happen, but it wasn't necessary because you could tell he'd done that as time went by anyway.
Getting over the feeling of loss and forgiving Picard for something Sisko logically knows that Picard had absolutely no control over are two different things entirely.

He could have still forgived Picard, realized they were both victims of the borg, which they were, and still felt plenty of pain. Perhaps it would be even worse now because he had no one to blame. Sometimes pain is easier to deal with when you have a scapegoat.

It would have made Sisko seem like less of an ass and more likeable in the first episode.
But that's just it. Your head can know one thing, but your heart just can't let go (at least not at first). Like in Game of Thrones, think of the wife that's mean to the child her husband had out of wedlock because he cheated on her. The child is innocent, but that doesn't stop the wife from hating him. Cat's worse because she didn't let it go and held onto her hate. She seemed to forgive her husband, but not the child he had that did nothing wrong. Other women in the same situation (one I've known) come around before the child is old enough to be affected by their initial hurt/hate.

In Sisko's case, it's very realistic for his rage to be triggered just by seeing Picard, and for him to just glaze over what he was feeling like he was okay with dealing the the man that was responsible (even though he really wasn't - again, we're talking about feelings and grief) would have cheapened the loss and memory of his dead wife. You can know that it wasn't someone's fault, but you still can't deal with them because it's just too hard. That's what was great about that scene. We get to see Sisko having a very hard time dealing with someone that he wasn't ready to deal with just yet.

You can say he seemed like an ass, but I'd say he seemed like a human being.
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Old September 3 2012, 08:41 PM   #48
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^I took it that he felt about Picard the way you describe at the start of the episode. However, I think Mr Homm is right, that by the end of the episode, after his experiences in the wormhole, he had forgiven Picard and was ready to move on. Sure, he still hated the Borg, but not longer Picard.
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Old September 4 2012, 02:02 PM   #49
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

"Forgiven" implies Picard did something wrong, he didn't.

What happened was that Sisko just realized Picard was no different from him, another victim and wasn't deserving of any scorn.
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Old September 4 2012, 05:41 PM   #50
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Anwar wrote: View Post
"Forgiven" implies Picard did something wrong, he didn't.

What happened was that Sisko just realized Picard was no different from him, another victim and wasn't deserving of any scorn.
Right. Well, that's what *should* have happened in the show. For all wthe viewer knows, sisko still hates picard. Theres no payoff scene where he shows that he doesnt hold it against him, unfortunately.
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Old September 4 2012, 08:35 PM   #51
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^I thought it was fairly clear from their last scene together that he no longer felt about Picard as he previously had (and Anwar is quite correct, 'forgive' isn't the right word). It wasn't spelt out but I felt that it was inferred fairly clearly.
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Old September 5 2012, 12:43 AM   #52
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

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^I thought it was fairly clear from their last scene together that he no longer felt about Picard as he previously had (and Anwar is quite correct, 'forgive' isn't the right word). It wasn't spelt out but I felt that it was inferred fairly clearly.
You're right, I kind of blanked out on that. It's obvious he doesn't hate Picard anymore.

Although, (and It's been a while since I've seen the episode) I'm not sure I took it the same way as you. I remember feeling the impression that he had gotten over it, and he had a new enthusiasm about his new job since it just got so much more interesting, but the fact that he didn't take a second to apologize, or even hint that he felt badly about what he said, made him seem a bit self centered and thoughtless imo..

I mean, he taunted and spoke down to a man for basically being raped and forced to commit mass murder against his friends and comrades for crying out loud... and now that he's all excited about his new posting, he's acting like "Hey don't worry about it dude, I forgive YOU for being raped..." Sorry but I think he should have been a bit more ashamed about how he acted towards Picard. Not to mention a Captain, which made him his superior officer.

From what I remember, at the end, he sort of just acted all happy and enthusiastic, but didn't indicate in any way whatsoever that he felt bad about how he behaved earlier. Sure, he shook his hand, indicating he may have respect for him now, as if Picard needed it, but he owed him an apology. Of course Picard wouldn't demand or expect one because he's a classy guy. I'll have to check it out again to be sure though. It's been a while and I've been wanting to revisit it anyway.
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Old September 5 2012, 10:29 AM   #53
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^Yes, I agree. I would have liked to see him apologise to Picard or even start to say 'Sir, about before...' and have Picard stop him and say 'No need, Commander.' Something like that.
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Old September 5 2012, 11:35 PM   #54
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

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...or even start to say 'Sir, about before...' and have Picard stop him and say 'No need, Commander.' Something like that.
Yes, that would be appropriate as well. Probably better than a full on apology.

I watched it again today, and it confirmed my feelings... I *almost* get the feeling that Picard was still offended when he left. The way they shake hands, Picard not really smiling, and then he sort of slowly walks down the stairs without looking back. But he's not the type to look back anyway I guess.
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Old September 5 2012, 11:38 PM   #55
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
...or even start to say 'Sir, about before...' and have Picard stop him and say 'No need, Commander.' Something like that.
Yes, that would be appropriate as well. Probably better than a full on apology.
It would have been a nice character bit on both their parts. Demonstrating that Sisko can admit the wrong and that Picard doesn't hold a grudge.

Really I never got any impression from that final scene from Sisko and Picard on a personal level between the two. It was obvious that Sisko was no longer disenchanted with Starfleet and found a purpose, but the rest really is speculation.
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Old September 6 2012, 01:41 PM   #56
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^You could be right, it's been a long time since I last saw it.

Of course, it could equally be argued that they deliberately didn't include a happy resolution between the two characters as a way of helping to establish DS9's more ambiguous, less touchy-feely mode than TNG.
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Old September 6 2012, 01:51 PM   #57
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

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^You could be right, it's been a long time since I last saw it.

Of course, it could equally be argued that they deliberately didn't include a happy resolution between the two characters as a way of helping to establish DS9's more ambiguous, less touchy-feely mode than TNG.
Hehe, I'd imagine Sisko and Picard going at it that first time established that it wasn't going to be happy, touchy feely.
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Old September 6 2012, 01:59 PM   #58
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^I thought it was fairly clear from their last scene together that he no longer felt about Picard as he previously had (and Anwar is quite correct, 'forgive' isn't the right word). It wasn't spelt out but I felt that it was inferred fairly clearly.
You're right, I kind of blanked out on that. It's obvious he doesn't hate Picard anymore.

Although, (and It's been a while since I've seen the episode) I'm not sure I took it the same way as you. I remember feeling the impression that he had gotten over it, and he had a new enthusiasm about his new job since it just got so much more interesting, but the fact that he didn't take a second to apologize, or even hint that he felt badly about what he said, made him seem a bit self centered and thoughtless imo..

I mean, he taunted and spoke down to a man for basically being raped and forced to commit mass murder against his friends and comrades for crying out loud... and now that he's all excited about his new posting, he's acting like "Hey don't worry about it dude, I forgive YOU for being raped..." Sorry but I think he should have been a bit more ashamed about how he acted towards Picard. Not to mention a Captain, which made him his superior officer.

From what I remember, at the end, he sort of just acted all happy and enthusiastic, but didn't indicate in any way whatsoever that he felt bad about how he behaved earlier. Sure, he shook his hand, indicating he may have respect for him now, as if Picard needed it, but he owed him an apology. Of course Picard wouldn't demand or expect one because he's a classy guy. I'll have to check it out again to be sure though. It's been a while and I've been wanting to revisit it anyway.
I think it's "thoughtless" to not consider the tremendous loss that Sisko underwent, but he just lost his wife and his son doesn't have a mother, so he should just forget about that and worry about how Picard is doing... Um, I really don't agree.

Whilst Sisko is still in the throes of grief from losing his wife, I think Picard could understand that the last thing on Sisko's mind was his feelings, Captain or not. Yes, Picard was a victim too, but that doesn't negate the fact that Sisko and his family were also victims and still dealing with their loss while having to relocate and re-situate themselves. With all of the problems that came with having to take the helm of a station that was falling apart and a hodge-podge crew that were just meeting each other, I don't think Sisko gave their interaction another thought, until later when he could afford to. And that makes sense.

I still think it would have been nice to see the two of them gain better footing with each other, to show that they'd both moved on, a few years later.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
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...or even start to say 'Sir, about before...' and have Picard stop him and say 'No need, Commander.' Something like that.
Yes, that would be appropriate as well. Probably better than a full on apology.
It would have been a nice character bit on both their parts. Demonstrating that Sisko can admit the wrong and that Picard doesn't hold a grudge.

Really I never got any impression from that final scene from Sisko and Picard on a personal level between the two. It was obvious that Sisko was no longer disenchanted with Starfleet and found a purpose, but the rest really is speculation.
And I think that's what it was supposed to be. It showed that he was in the process of moving beyond his pain and grief, which was good for him. And as for Picard, well, with all of the genocide he had to participate in, he had to know that everyone wasn't going to be happy to see him if they lost someone due to it, so I think he was adult enough to get over it and move along too.
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Old September 7 2012, 04:42 AM   #59
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^I thought it was fairly clear from their last scene together that he no longer felt about Picard as he previously had (and Anwar is quite correct, 'forgive' isn't the right word). It wasn't spelt out but I felt that it was inferred fairly clearly.
You're right, I kind of blanked out on that. It's obvious he doesn't hate Picard anymore.

Although, (and It's been a while since I've seen the episode) I'm not sure I took it the same way as you. I remember feeling the impression that he had gotten over it, and he had a new enthusiasm about his new job since it just got so much more interesting, but the fact that he didn't take a second to apologize, or even hint that he felt badly about what he said, made him seem a bit self centered and thoughtless imo..

I mean, he taunted and spoke down to a man for basically being raped and forced to commit mass murder against his friends and comrades for crying out loud... and now that he's all excited about his new posting, he's acting like "Hey don't worry about it dude, I forgive YOU for being raped..." Sorry but I think he should have been a bit more ashamed about how he acted towards Picard. Not to mention a Captain, which made him his superior officer.

From what I remember, at the end, he sort of just acted all happy and enthusiastic, but didn't indicate in any way whatsoever that he felt bad about how he behaved earlier. Sure, he shook his hand, indicating he may have respect for him now, as if Picard needed it, but he owed him an apology. Of course Picard wouldn't demand or expect one because he's a classy guy. I'll have to check it out again to be sure though. It's been a while and I've been wanting to revisit it anyway.
I think it's "thoughtless" to not consider the tremendous loss that Sisko underwent, but he just lost his wife and his son doesn't have a mother, so he should just forget about that and worry about how Picard is doing... Um, I really don't agree.
No, I think that's silly. Just because he experienced a terrible trauma (that happened several years ago by the way) doesn't excuse him from acting like a mature adult. Sure, in the moment, when he first sees Picard, he loses his composure. I get that. He's only human. But he should have showed some remorse at the end of the episode for how he behaved. It would have served to make the main character far more likable on the first episode. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree though.
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Old September 7 2012, 08:08 AM   #60
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post

You're right, I kind of blanked out on that. It's obvious he doesn't hate Picard anymore.

Although, (and It's been a while since I've seen the episode) I'm not sure I took it the same way as you. I remember feeling the impression that he had gotten over it, and he had a new enthusiasm about his new job since it just got so much more interesting, but the fact that he didn't take a second to apologize, or even hint that he felt badly about what he said, made him seem a bit self centered and thoughtless imo..

I mean, he taunted and spoke down to a man for basically being raped and forced to commit mass murder against his friends and comrades for crying out loud... and now that he's all excited about his new posting, he's acting like "Hey don't worry about it dude, I forgive YOU for being raped..." Sorry but I think he should have been a bit more ashamed about how he acted towards Picard. Not to mention a Captain, which made him his superior officer.

From what I remember, at the end, he sort of just acted all happy and enthusiastic, but didn't indicate in any way whatsoever that he felt bad about how he behaved earlier. Sure, he shook his hand, indicating he may have respect for him now, as if Picard needed it, but he owed him an apology. Of course Picard wouldn't demand or expect one because he's a classy guy. I'll have to check it out again to be sure though. It's been a while and I've been wanting to revisit it anyway.
I think it's "thoughtless" to not consider the tremendous loss that Sisko underwent, but he just lost his wife and his son doesn't have a mother, so he should just forget about that and worry about how Picard is doing... Um, I really don't agree.
No, I think that's silly. Just because he experienced a terrible trauma (that happened several years ago by the way) doesn't excuse him from acting like a mature adult. Sure, in the moment, when he first sees Picard, he loses his composure. I get that. He's only human. But he should have showed some remorse at the end of the episode for how he behaved. It would have served to make the main character far more likable on the first episode. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree though.
I don't think it's silly at all. He did act like a "mature adult." If he hadn't, then he would have knocked Picard down upon sight. Instead, he showed restraint. Remorse is the wrong word, because he didn't do anything wrong. Not smiling and being super chummy with a Captain is neither a crime nor bad conduct. Like I mentioned before, it would have been nice to see them gain better footing later on, but that's it.

We will have to agree to disagree.
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