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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 31 2012, 06:14 AM   #1486
datalogan
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I liked the use of holographic technology in "Business as Usual" to sell illegal (or at least questionable) things in an open forum. It just makes sense that the technology would be used in that way. Plus, it's safer. Even if you're not selling dangerous things, it's nice to know the customers can't steal your stuff from your shop (holosuite).

I felt that the Starfleet characters (like Dax) were too quick to judge Quark just because he was an arms dealer. She does realize Starfleet makes and buys (and maybe sells) weapons too, right?

One more random observation: I guess it's just luck of the draw (or whim of the writers) as to which family members get developed more on Star Trek. Gaila's been mentioned a couple of times, a gift from him was a significant plot device in "Little Green Men", now he's featured in an episode, and he'll probably be revisited again. Yet Jadzia's mother and sister were only mentioned once and never seen, Sisko's brothers only mentioned once and never seen, Geordi's sister only mentioned once and never seen. This is just a small complaint, but I wish we had seen little glimpses of family members visiting from time to time. Or at least mention the visit in passing, like when they twice mentioned that O'Brien's father had visited. It just adds a sense of reality to the show.
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Old August 31 2012, 09:20 AM   #1487
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I didn't mind the episode too much. There is a difference between a legitimate arms dealer, and a black market arms dealer. The people Quark was dealing with were quite illegitimate, although they're not stupid at all. I do agree that a discussion about said arms dealer supplying the Bajorans would have been more interesting, and the whole biological WMD could have been a little less anvilicious.
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Old August 31 2012, 09:44 AM   #1488
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I enjoyed the episode. Sure Hagath was somewhat two dimentional, but who cares? The episode wasn't about him at all. It was about Quark. He was quite clearly on the path to getting everything he wanted, and Gaila was all to happy to give it to him, but it had a price. One that even Quark found himself unwilling to pay. Just proves that sure he's a greedy bastard, but he has a heart of gold under it all if you dig deep enough.
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Old August 31 2012, 12:49 PM   #1489
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

R. Star wrote: View Post
Just proves that sure he's a greedy bastard, but he has a heart of gold under it all if you dig deep enough.
There's something amusingly significant in phrasing it this way, concerning the show's inconsistant approach to the value of gold. Is it just as precious as latinum or is it now "worthless"?
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Old September 1 2012, 07:11 AM   #1490
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Just proves that sure he's a greedy bastard, but he has a heart of gold under it all if you dig deep enough.
There's something amusingly significant in phrasing it this way, concerning the show's inconsistant approach to the value of gold. Is it just as precious as latinum or is it now "worthless"?
It depends on what episode in question we're refering to?
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Old September 1 2012, 02:34 PM   #1491
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
...
Gaila's speech about the stars, and whether it really matters if Quark helps him put out one of those stars, takes on another layer of meaning for me. ..
It also happens to be a re-working of the classic "Ferris Wheel Speech" from The Third Man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i47-QBL4Qo
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Old September 3 2012, 05:37 PM   #1492
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

BennyRussel wrote: View Post
It also happens to be a re-working of the classic "Ferris Wheel Speech" from The Third Man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i47-QBL4Qo
I must have seen that scene a hundred times. Not because I wanted to, but because my English teacher chose that scene as part of our comparative writing essay for my class's Leaving Cert exam. He'd never show the whole movie, just that scene over and over and over and over again, all the while enthusing about its brilliance. I think I had to compare it with the scene from Othello where Iago convinces Othello that Desdemona is having an affair, and the scene from Remains of the Day where Miss Kenton thinks Stevens is reading a racy book. I can't remember why we were comparing those scenes, I think my teacher just liked them and came up with some BS tying them together.


Ties of Blood and Water (****½)

I'll never forget the day my father died. It was just a normal Saturday, he was relaxing when the TV stopped working, he went to fix it, and he was struck by a sudden electric shock that stopped his heart. He died right in front of my eyes. So I quit the household and reloaded from earlier that morning. I should probably have mentioned that this happened in The Sims and that my real father is still alive and well. Sorry if I confused anyone.

This episode has a lot going for it; emotion, politics, death, poison, flashbacks, smugness, and continuity. At it's core is a well-told story about Kira's fear of facing the death of those she cares about, and particularly the wound of her father's death and how she ran away so as not to face it. It's a great story with great acting and great characters. Kira's backstory has provided a wealth of meaty material for the show, and it does it once again here. My one problem with it is that Kira explains her emotional journey at the end of the episode, which felt unnecessary, but Nana Visitor gave it her all and just about manages to sell the scene regardless.

Meanwhile the show returns to Cardassian politics after its absence following the Dominion coup. We get to see Dukat in his new role, which is both fun and frightening. It's a bit weird that Dukat doesn't visit Ziyal, at least not on screen, but I suppose such a scene might have just been a distraction from the rest of the story. This episode also contains the reintroduction of Weyoun, which has to have been one of the best decisions DS9 ever made. It may seem a bit weird to reinterpret an entire species just to bring back an actor, but Weyoun is such a wonderful character that it's forgiveable, and his resurrection was worth it just for the poison scene alone.
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Old September 3 2012, 06:52 PM   #1493
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I haven't lost my parents or grandparents yet...but this was the episode that holds the record for biggest tearjerker for me, of ANY DS9 episode, or any Trek incarnation, at all.

I felt like what really made the episode was the interaction between Nana Visitor and Lawrence Pressman. From what I've read on M-A about Pressman's background, it could be that he drew on emotions from his own life for his performance here, and it really shows.
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Old September 3 2012, 09:46 PM   #1494
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Not sure why this episode scored so highly. The interactions between Ghemor and Kira felt clunky at best, I did like the flashbacks into Kira's past and the whole backstory about the death of her father. But plotwise this episode was all over the place. The problem is the interactions between Ghemor and Kira, they seem to really know each other when they have only met face to face almost three years ago for a short period of time. They just seem to be too familiar and it doesn't gel with me, and it smacks of laziness on the writers part not explaining this away.

Some of the dialogue and interactions feels forced, and if anything Dukat and co save this episode from becoming average or worse. The interactions between Kira and Dukat were great (some real fire and passion there), Dukat and Ghemor were great together, Kira and Bashir in that final scene really worked (it is one of those rare occasions where you see Kira cry about something) but for some reason Kira and Ghemor together did not. I just feel this episode assumed and extrapolated too much regarding those two.

But at least Kira is out of that smock-like uniform...

And great to see Weyoun back, the drink scene had to be the highlight of the whole episode.
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Old September 3 2012, 10:46 PM   #1495
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I agree that the relationship between Ghemor and Kira in "Ties of Blood and Water" is stronger relationship than seen at the end of "Second Skin", but it has been a while. Maybe they stayed in touch and developed the relationship more since last time we saw them together. "Off-screen" solution to inconsistency.

I find the Cardassian politics interesting. Ghemor was a big part of the Cardassian dissident movement. So when the dissident movement took over Cardassia in the form of the Detapa Council in early season 4, certainly Ghemor was a high-level person in the government. The same government Dukat sided with in "Way of the Warrior". And the same government Dukat overthrew in "By Inferno's Light". You can see how these men have an interesting history. And I do love seeing Dukat (and Weyoun!!) on screen.

Plus we see the old Cardassian custom of revealing all your secrets about your enemies to your family when you near death (Shri-tal). Last seen when Tain talked to his son Garak right before dying in "In Purgatory's Shadow".

While I do feel that the parellels between Ghemor's death and Kira's father were a bit forced, I did like seeing the flash-backs into Kira's life. And it was nice to see Furel again, even though he died in "The Darkness and the Light".

By the way, according to the book "Fearful Symmetry", Dukat did know where Ghemor's daughter was at this time. But he never would have revealed her to Ghemor because he had been treating her so badly.
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Old September 4 2012, 06:50 PM   #1496
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ To say the least.

The Shri-tal is a brilliant invention since it is such a natural custom for such a paranoid and family orientated race, it allows one to undermine your enemies without suffering the consequences by dint of being dead and could also be used to pass on intelligence to others (as Legate Ghemor adroitly did during this episode). Of course I'm sure that many Cardassians just used the Shri-tal to pass on harmless thoughts and feelings to their families and to express their love to them because...

Yeah, like that would ever happen.

There is a lot to love about this episode, from Dukat and his Gold Band of Absolute Power! to Weyoun Five and his charming manner and ability to down a drink in mere seconds (what a diplomat eh?) but the heart of it is the relationship between the former Legate of the Central Command and the ex-resistance fighter from Bajor, the acting really brought it home.
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Old September 6 2012, 02:48 PM   #1497
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You kind of saw a version of the Shri-tal between Tain and Garak, though Tain was just basically giving Garak a hit list on his death bed.

As for Fearful Symmetry.... that one took me by surprise as the most twisted and.... well evil... demonstration of Dukat's behavior...

My biggest regret of this episode is that this is all we saw of Ghemor. It would have been nice to have seen him as the voice of the civillian government in season 4 and 5. He was such a wonderful and likable character.
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Old September 6 2012, 07:01 PM   #1498
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

He was indeed. And that was what made Ghemor's loss so painful.

BTW, I think you now see where I get my name from...
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Old September 6 2012, 07:22 PM   #1499
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Mind you if the GOL (Grand Old Legate) had been in change of the reformed Cardassian Union then the dynamics of the next few years would have been very different indeed.
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Old September 6 2012, 08:58 PM   #1500
R. Star
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Mind you if the GOL (Grand Old Legate) had been in change of the reformed Cardassian Union then the dynamics of the next few years would have been very different indeed.
Not really, it was firmly established that Ghemor's movement was working to overthrow the Central Command and the military government in Season 2.

In Season 4, that overthrow firmly happened. Dukat threw in with the civillian government and flat out told Sisko he just switched sides because he was picking the winner and where he'd have the most power. Ghemor was in exile before this and it stands to reason he returned to Cardassia and served at least in some capacity in the new civillian regime. It's quite possible he could have even been on the Defiant/DS9 during the Klingon attack being they rescued the Detapa Council.

In late season 5, Dukat and the Dominion overthrow the civillian government and Ghemor was later shown to be in exile again(probably self imposed as he would have been against the Dominion without a doubt) and later showed up on DS9 in the aforementioned episode.

So that's a good year and a half he could have been in the thick of things with at least one solid oppurtunity for a guest appearance in Way of the Warrior. It's just a shame it never happened.
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