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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 3 2012, 05:59 AM   #1
chrinFinity
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Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

I'm thinking Armus might have been either an exiled founder, who got all oily and evil while he was still with the Link, or alternatively one of the Hundred who maybe got psionically shit on by a civilization of telepaths or empaths and then thrown away?

Anyone else had thoughts to this effect?

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Old September 3 2012, 06:09 AM   #2
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

It's something I've always liked to imagine and wonder about as well, although I think if I ever heard an official answer it would take some of the fun out of it. Armus is one of my favorite TNG bad guys, and not just because he killed Tasha. He was truly evil and pathetic.

I also love his awesome theme music!



From Memory Alpha:

Armus was born as a by-product of a procedure in which a race of "titans" brought out from within themselves all evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. The unwanted substance spread and coalesced into a dank and vile second skin.

Yeah, I don't think the Founders brought out from within themselves all the evil and negative attributes they had. They seemed like pricks to me.

Whoever left Armus there was some angelic do-gooder race when they left. I get the impression that when they left the evil/negative substance, they didn't foresee it coming together to form armus, and probably never realized his existence.. because knowing that, and not doing anything about it, would seem pretty callous to me.

Star Trek Encyclopedia says the race that created Armus was native to Vagra II. So that rules out the Founders too, if it's to be believed. Maybe it was the metrons. With their immense power, they could be said to be "titans", and they seem to be pretty do gooder-ish. Well, maybe a little arrogant, but that's about it.



In DS9, there is mention of a "metron consortium"... according to "Star Trek Star Charts" the metron consortium is in the beta quadrant. I can't find any information as to what quadrant Vagra II is in, though. Just that it's in the Zed Lapis sector

I guess Vagra II's quadrant would be irrelevent, though, since the original inhabitants obviously don't live on Vagra II anymore.
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Old September 3 2012, 06:31 AM   #3
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

What if... the Great Link, long before the dominion, evolved on Vagra II, and then learned to improve themselves by leaving the negative hateful pitiable elements behind, boiling them up to the top and letting them dry out like tomato soup skin, and then the rest of them left the planet en masse?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]ARMUS [OC]: I am alone.
TROI: Abandoned. Who deserted you?
ARMUS [OC]: Creatures whose beauty now dazzles all who see them. They would not exist without me.
TROI: You were together?
ARMUS [OC]: They perfected a means of bringing to the surface all that was evil and negative within. Erupting, spreading, connecting. In time it formed second skin, dank and vile. [/SIZE][/FONT]

The Great Link would then be spaceborne (which we already know they can do, migrate en masse), and leave the black oil behind to stew and eventually become Armus, who can't create a solid form complex enough to escape the planet's gravity or atmosphere (UNLIKE a normal changeling), but who *can* effect a certain degree of psionic capabilities, such as the telekinesis he uses to mess with the Away Team, and how he messed up the Shuttle's energy in the first place to force them to crash when they got too close in passing Vagra II. Whatever makes him pure evil also gives him those abilities, so it's something that the Changelings left in the Great Link can no longer do.

THEN, much later in the future, the Great Link ends up in the Gamma Quadrant... And they try to integrate peacefully with solids at first, who mistreat them and hunt/kill them...

THAT makes them insular, it makes them sit and seethe... they see themselves as more evolved than the solids, more "good," less "evil" and given that solids kill them, they feel suitably justified in their arrogance. So they decide, partly out of arrogance and partly out of self defence, to organize... to build a defence, to build an empire, as much to "guide" the solids as for their own good. And thus, the Domionion is born.

They don't necessarily see themselves as evil, do they. They just look with intense disdain on solids, and they feel themselves superior - godlike. To them, their inherent superiority justifies their galactic mischief.

What say you?
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Old September 3 2012, 06:40 AM   #4
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
What if... the Great Link, long before the dominion, evolved on Vagra II, and then learned to improve themselves by leaving the negative hateful pitiable elements behind, boiling them up to the top and letting them dry out like tomato soup skin, and then the rest of them left the planet en masse?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]ARMUS [OC]: I am alone.
TROI: Abandoned. Who deserted you?
ARMUS [OC]: Creatures whose beauty now dazzles all who see them. They would not exist without me.
TROI: You were together?
ARMUS [OC]: They perfected a means of bringing to the surface all that was evil and negative within. Erupting, spreading, connecting. In time it formed second skin, dank and vile. [/SIZE][/FONT]

The Great Link would then be spaceborne (which we already know they can do, migrate en masse), and leave the black oil behind to stew and eventually become Armus, who can't create a solid form complex enough to escape the planet's gravity or atmosphere (UNLIKE a normal changeling), but who *can* effect a certain degree of psionic capabilities, such as the telekinesis he uses to mess with the Away Team, and how he messed up the Shuttle's energy in the first place to force them to crash when they got too close in passing Vagra II. Whatever makes him pure evil also gives him those abilities, so it's something that the Changelings left in the Great Link can no longer do.

THEN, much later in the future, the Great Link ends up in the Gamma Quadrant... And they try to integrate peacefully with solids at first, who mistreat them and hunt/kill them...

THAT makes them insular, it makes them sit and seethe... they see themselves as more evolved than the solids, more "good," less "evil" and given that solids kill them, they feel suitably justified in their arrogance. So they decide, partly out of arrogance and partly out of self defence, to organize... to build a defence, to build an empire, as much to "guide" the solids as for their own good. And thus, the Domionion is born.

They don't necessarily see themselves as evil, do they. They just look with intense disdain on solids, and they feel themselves superior - godlike. To them, their inherent superiority justifies their galactic mischief.

What say you?
Could be. I just feel the gamma quadrant is SO far away it would be very unlikely for them to travel there. Galaxy's a massive place. I'm still a bit of a DS9 newb myself, still working my way through the series, so I don't know enough about the founders I guess. I doubt their great link is warp capable while in space, though. But maybe they flew into a wormhole or something. Or maybe they are warp capable. Could they just shift into a warp engine? Eh I'm not really qualified to talk about the founders in depth. I need to finish the series :P

With enough explanation it could work, and they already do share similar qualities (Shape shifting to an extent)... I think the psionic abilities thing is kind of a problem though. That's something the metrons have though.
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Old September 3 2012, 06:43 AM   #5
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Who knows, it could have taken them hundreds of years to get there. Or maybe they could go faster than maximum warp speeds... Laas has absolutely no problem catching up to Odo's runabout when Laas had taken the form of a spaceship to chase them. And that's just *one* changeling being a ship. If hundreds of them got together and organized into one giant warp propulsion system, who knows what they couldn't accomplish.
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Old September 3 2012, 02:35 PM   #6
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

If Armus is all that is evil and destructive within than the Medusans, who have the most sublime thoughts, might be an okay fit as their creators.
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Old September 3 2012, 04:37 PM   #7
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
What if... the Great Link, long before the dominion, evolved on Vagra II, and then learned to improve themselves by leaving the negative hateful pitiable elements behind, boiling them up to the top and letting them dry out like tomato soup skin, and then the rest of them left the planet en masse?
Nah that doesn't make any sense. The Founders hate all humanoids, and to be honest I don't think the Founders ever trusted the solids (going right back to the beginning), so clearly the Founders would have had some negative tendencies.

And Mr. Homm, you're right about Armus being a great bad guy; he always gives me great laughs for being a man covered in tar and acting so ridiculously clichéd!
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Old September 4 2012, 01:33 AM   #8
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Ln X wrote: View Post
chrinFinity wrote: View Post
What if... the Great Link, long before the dominion, evolved on Vagra II, and then learned to improve themselves by leaving the negative hateful pitiable elements behind, boiling them up to the top and letting them dry out like tomato soup skin, and then the rest of them left the planet en masse?
Nah that doesn't make any sense. The Founders hate all humanoids, and to be honest I don't think the Founders ever trusted the solids (going right back to the beginning), so clearly the Founders would have had some negative tendencies.

And Mr. Homm, you're right about Armus being a great bad guy; he always gives me great laughs for being a man covered in tar and acting so ridiculously clichéd!
Glad you enjoy him if in a different way. I always find him pitiable and end up feeling sorry for him during his terrifying screams when he knows hes going to once again be left alone to fester in his own hate, likely for centuries. he's a total asshole but its not like he ever had any choice. I wonder what the race who left him would feel knowing hes been suffering so long. If theyre such good guys they should at least put him out of his misery. In fact sometimes I wish thats what picard would do at the end.
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Old September 4 2012, 02:40 AM   #9
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Star Trek Encyclopedia says the race that created Armus was native to Vagra II. So that rules out the Founders too, if it's to be believed. Maybe it was the metrons. With their immense power, they could be said to be "titans", and they seem to be pretty do gooder-ish. Well, maybe a little arrogant, but that's about it.
Ah, the race that created Armus was native to that planet, but that doesn't mean that Armus was! Perhaps Armus was one of the hundred, came across the Metrons on that world, and they discarded all their evilness and negativity onto him.

I can't think of anything canon that would contradict this idea, with the possible exception that Laas could travel through space, so if Armus was a changeling as well, why couldn't he do it. But then, it's entirely possible that whatever change happened to him left him unable to travel through space.

A very interesting idea.
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Old September 4 2012, 05:33 AM   #10
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Star Trek Encyclopedia says the race that created Armus was native to Vagra II. So that rules out the Founders too, if it's to be believed. Maybe it was the metrons. With their immense power, they could be said to be "titans", and they seem to be pretty do gooder-ish. Well, maybe a little arrogant, but that's about it.
Ah, the race that created Armus was native to that planet, but that doesn't mean that Armus was! Perhaps Armus was one of the hundred, came across the Metrons on that world, and they discarded all their evilness and negativity onto him.

I can't think of anything canon that would contradict this idea, with the possible exception that Laas could travel through space, so if Armus was a changeling as well, why couldn't he do it. But then, it's entirely possible that whatever change happened to him left him unable to travel through space.

A very interesting idea.
Sorry but its clearly stated that armus was BORN as a by product of their shedded "evil"

He did not exist before they shed their negative attributes, they didnt dump their negativity onto a pre existing being. He was born from it. Thrn they left vagra 2, thereforr he was born on vagra 2
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Old September 4 2012, 03:47 PM   #11
Tiberius
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Oh, come on. Trek has retconned worse than that before.

Perhaps by "Born" Armus meant that he became the being he was when the Enterprise found him.
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Old September 4 2012, 05:38 PM   #12
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Oh, come on. Trek has retconned worse than that before.

Perhaps by "Born" Armus meant that he became the being he was when the Enterprise found him.
Eh, you're right. In that case ben sisko is captain kirks grandson. Oh and spock founded section 31. hey theres been worse!
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Old September 5 2012, 04:13 AM   #13
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Oh, come on. Trek has retconned worse than that before.

Perhaps by "Born" Armus meant that he became the being he was when the Enterprise found him.
Eh, you're right. In that case ben sisko is captain kirks grandson. Oh and spock founded section 31. hey theres been worse!
That's not what I mean, and you know it.

I'm talking about an interpretation of a line in a non-literal sense.
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Old September 5 2012, 05:02 AM   #14
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Oh, come on. Trek has retconned worse than that before.

Perhaps by "Born" Armus meant that he became the being he was when the Enterprise found him.
Eh, you're right. In that case ben sisko is captain kirks grandson. Oh and spock founded section 31. hey theres been worse!
That's not what I mean, and you know it.

I'm talking about an interpretation of a line in a non-literal sense.
Yeah but it doesn't make sense to me. If a race has become devoid of negative attributes, how could they be so cruel as to leave Armus alone like that to suffer for all eternity? Especially if it's someone they just happened to come across. That's even worse, because that would imply Armus wasn't as evil before as when they left him. I understand that they would still have the negative attributes before they hypothetically met this Armus fellow, but once they rid themselves of their negativity and evil, it would seem quite cruel for them to just leave him there suffering and not try and fix the situation, or fix him somehow.

The history of armus only makes sense if the people who left him did so either before he came into consciousness, or before they were aware of his consciousness. That way, they are completely unaware of the suffering they have caused and their goodness is still intact. If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them. They would be total assholes, regardless of what kind of person armus was before they met him.

As for the founders theory, it's too far of a reach for me that Armus could be an ex founder, or a remnant of the founders. Especially since he possesses telekinetic powers that they don't, and they live on complete opposite sides of the galaxy. He also says "those who left me dazzle all with their beauty" or whatever, and I don't really think there's anything particularly beautiful about the founders. They are just brown goo in their natural state... and as I said before, the founders have plenty of negative attributes. They are xenophobes who hate solids for the most part. Hate/racism is not really a positive attribute last time I checked.. It's just way too much of a reach for me, and it doesn't add up at all.
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Old September 5 2012, 05:38 AM   #15
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

When was Odo born? When the Founders shot him off into space in a tiny jar, or after Dr. Mora forced him into sentience? I can see Armus, if one of the hundred, being "born" among those he'd found on Vagra 2.
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