Is Wrath of Khan Overrated

[BillJ]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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In that respect Khan is comparable to the Borg in FC, Shinzon in NEM, and Nero in XI. Although no one shows the same adoration for these villains even though in a measurable sense these villains were much more successful. I get the sense Trek fans want Khan to be Trek's Darth Vader and Khan really doesn't have the star power for the role.

The difference between Khan and the rest is that his motivations are simple and make sense. He wants revenge for being dumped on a dead world where no one ever checked up on him and his people.

It's the audience and the fans who have to connect the dots for his motivations. More evidence of the fans filling in the blanks for Khan's character and actions.

The Genesis Device is there simply to up the ante. It's no different than Red Matter or Thalaron radiation. Without it, there's no immediacy to the threat these characters represent.

Green Lantern wrote:

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Personaly, every TNG film tops any TOS film. Generations being my favourate.

Bias is a bad, bad thing. I love TNG, but the films are a putrid mess. Even First Contact fails simple logic. We have the Borg come all the way across the galaxy then go back in time or else we don't have a movie. If the Borg beam just five drones down to 21st century Earth, it falls PDQ and again we don't have a movie.

[NrobbieC]

BillJ wrote:

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Bias is a bad, bad thing. I love TNG, but the films are a putrid mess.

Ah, the pot and the kettle get along famously :P

I agree that every TNG film is so much better the TOS ones. I also feel every spin-off topples TOS.
I have seen them by the way so my opinions are based on something I'm not trying to flame anyone.

[BillJ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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I agree that every TNG film is so much better the TOS ones.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of movie goers disagree with you.

[NrobbieC]

BillJ wrote:

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of movie goers disagree with you.

Who knows. Show a bunch of people my age that have never seen Trek the first 10 films and we'll see what happens. This borders on a form of torture

I could say the vast majority of people over 40 would disagree with me, but quality of films is nothing but opinion.

[BillJ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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This borders on a form of torture

It's only torture if you make them watch Insurrection and Nemesis.

[teacake]

I consider Generations a TOS film.

Kirk is so freaking huge that he squashes the TNG stuff into tinsel.

[NrobbieC]

teacake wrote:

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I consider Generations a TOS film.

Kirk is so freaking huge that he squashes the TNG stuff into tinsel.

He did let himself go.

I think of Generations as a TNG film, and my 2nd favourite Trek film, I forgive it for including Shatner because he gets killed twice

[BillJ]

teacake wrote:

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I consider Generations a TOS film.

Kirk is so freaking huge that he squashes the TNG stuff into tinsel.

I do think Generations shows the divide between the two series pretty well. When trying to save the El-Aurian ships, Kirk and Company come across as having fun. Even when trying to show them relaxing the TNG gang come across as stiff.

They also come across as guest stars in their own film, tying together the two pieces of the Kirk story.

[teacake]

NrobbieC wrote:

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He did let himself go.

I think of Generations as a TNG film, and my 2nd favourite Trek film, I forgive it for including Shatner because he gets killed twice

By HUGE I mean PRESENCE.

Hey the girdle worked well in Generations.

And the film had that chock full of color and events feel that TOS movies gave us.

[LOKAI of CHERON]

TWOK is a great Star Trek movie. TWOK is a great movie.

[Captain Nebula]

For all of the flaws I see in the movie now, TWOK is still my favorite. Do a slo-mo sometime on just the starship fight scenes - they are some of the most information dense scenes of any Star Trek movie. There are so many split-second shots, you can't keep track of them.

Now if they could just make a special edition/director's cut with redone outer space FX. The CGI is so good now that they could go back and redo all of the scenes with the Enterprise & Reliant and clean them up. And get rid of the reused footage from TMP.

[BillJ]

LOKAI of CHERON wrote:

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TWOK is a great Star Trek movie. TWOK is a great movie.

Exactly. It had great actors, a core story everyone in the theater could understand, a couple of great space battles and didn't get bogged down in minutiae.

[BillJ]

Captain Nebula wrote:

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Now if they could just make a special edition/director's cut with redone outer space FX. The CGI is so good now that they could go back and redo all of the scenes with the Enterprise & Reliant and clean them up. And get rid of the reused footage from TMP.

Why? The Motion Picture footage serves the purpose it was intended to. Remember, the home video era hadn't taken off yet so I doubt anyone actually remembered those shots even being in TMP. And why would you ditch the amazing model work done by ILM?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

lurok wrote:

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The age factor thing someone quoted is bullshit. A good film is a good film no matter when it was made or when you saw it.

Not true at all.

Some films simply don't hold up over time; TWOK is a very 80s movie in many stylistic respects. It's entered popular culture for the most part as a source of material for joke writers - fondly-made jokes in most instances, but grist for humor is nonetheless the film's primary resonance for most non-trekkies.

[sonak]

Green Lantern wrote:

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Yeah, it is. It's not even the best film of the TOS films, let alone all of them. Personaly, every TNG film tops any TOS film. Generations being my favourate. The first film ever was the worst one, they all looked so camp in that. Still prefer it to Voyeger though. Voyeger sucks.

you think INS or NEM top TWOK, TVH, or TUC?


That's an interesting perspective. Is it the action, the characters, ? I'd be curious to read why.


To me, the Next Gen films started solidly with GEN and FC, but took a big dive with INS. NEM was okay, not the train wreck it's made out to be, but not good either.