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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old September 2 2012, 01:30 AM   #46
T'Girl
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Christopher wrote: View Post
And we had plenty of characters in DS9 who didn't agree with the mainstream Starfleet view.
Who were outside of Starfleet, with a very few exceptions. I would advocate diversity within a Starfleet crew.

Maquis
Outside of Starfleet, an organization that many of them left behind. In Voyager, once they joined Janeway's crew, their maquis opinions quickly became muted.

Seven of Nine to challenge Federation ethics on a regular basis
While part of Janeway's crew, she was not inside Starfleet, her status was more Neelix, Kes and those adorable Borg kids.

... no money ... money ...
DS9 often pitted the Ferengi's capitalist values against the Federation's post-scarcity standards, and was sympathetic toward both.
I was thinking more showing that the Federation itself had a diverse economic system internally. Show that while the Federation obviously has a monetary system Picard wasn't just talking dreamily when he said no money. Some people in the Federation, in Starfleet, active choose to live moneyless in a system with money.

And their names are Kira Nerys and Ben Sisko.
Kira isn't in Starfleet, and for the purpose of a clear example of diversity Kira isn't a religious Human who serves right next to a atheist Human, Showing that Starfleet doesn't restrict either from openly following their beliefs. And also openly expressing their beliefs in a public fashion.

Seriously, just about everything I'm hearing here is something that DS9 or some other Trek series has already done.
Okay, a Starfleet officer who believe in euthiasia for disabled children. Put them next to someone like LaForge who would have been the beneficiary of such a procedure.

An officer who openly question one of the Federation's core principals, the Prime Directive. Seat them across from a "Picard" with a argument that (hopefully) makes sense.

Show that everyone with a heartfelt philosophical principal, likely has a counterpart serving along side them.

I would really like to see an officer explain openly that the reason the viewers didn't see any gays in Starfleet was that we were prevented from serving, for a reason that was formally support by some members in the Federation, and also some officers in Starfleet. Show the Federation is gaining diversity on a continuous process.

Don't just hand wave the absence of gays away with "Oh gays were alway there, you just didn't see them."

So I really don't understand the allegation that Trek has somehow failed to go there.
Dipping your toe in the water Christopher, isn't the same as jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Remember "The Outcast?"

And who the hell said anything about "human viewpoints?"
That would have been me. Starfleet ... I can't see influences from the other cultures. It has a Human style military structure, the rank system is American/British ... they have the rank of "Commander."

Other than "class M planet" perhaps coming from the Vulcans, what absolutely screams Vulcan to you?

Or Andorian? Or anybody else?



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Old September 2 2012, 03:31 AM   #47
Knight Templar
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Christopher wrote: View Post
NYPD Blue? The Shield? You're asking for Star Trek to become something it fundamentally isn't and never should be. There are already fifty zillion dark and cynical shows on TV and five hundred gajillion dark, dystopian science-fiction futures in both fiction and literature. What makes Star Trek special is its optimism, its inspirational nature. It's important that there be at least some fictional franchises out there that try to do something different than the same old cliched negativity.

True, there have been times when ST has pushed its heroes to darker places -- Sisko in the Dominion War, Janeway in "Equinox," Archer in the Xindi arc. But there have always been limits, and those have been the exceptions, not the rule. If what you want to see are protagonists that are always that dark, or even worse, then you do not want Star Trek. And there's no shortage of cynical, ugly, negative franchises out there to give you what you want.
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
From his previous posts, I would think he wanted it to feature a group of aryan looking clansmen riding around on the USS Hitler.
That is very offensive JoeZhang and you should apologize or back up what you claim.

And Christopher you're showing a lack of imagination...again.

You can have a broadly upbeat and optimistic show but still have a captain whose general personality and disposition are the opposite of that most of the time.
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Old September 2 2012, 03:34 AM   #48
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

chardman wrote: View Post
Basically, Knight Templar wants Star Trek to feature the kind of diverse personalities that would realistically never make it past the presumably thorough psych evaluations that Starfleet undoubtedly requires all of its cadets/personnel. If someone's motivations for exploring the galaxy are rooted in getting revenge, or fulfilling some fanatical quest, or anything else so psychotic as what he's suggested as possible motivations, one would hope that they'd be culled from the program prior to graduating from the Academy, and would never, ever make it so far as a shipboard posting.
Not at all.

You could have someone in Starfleet already who has fundamentally changed to darker as a result of their experiences there.

Experience in war such as the loss of a ship perhaps.

Or someone who has after 30 years in the service or so has decided that he "really does not like the damned aliens much"
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Old September 2 2012, 03:57 AM   #49
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
And we had plenty of characters in DS9 who didn't agree with the mainstream Starfleet view.
Who were outside of Starfleet, with a very few exceptions. I would advocate diversity within a Starfleet crew.
Spock vs. McCoy. Worf vs. practically anyone else aboard. Bashir vs. O'Brien or Dax. It's hardly true that Starfleet characters have never had a diversity of viewpoints.

Besides, does it matter if they're in Starfleet or out? What matters is that the cast of your fictional show is diverse enough to allow for interesting interactions and conflicts.


I was thinking more showing that the Federation itself had a diverse economic system internally. Show that while the Federation obviously has a monetary system Picard wasn't just talking dreamily when he said no money. Some people in the Federation, in Starfleet, active choose to live moneyless in a system with money.
I'd think it would be the other way around. If you have replicators, if you have access to the solar energy from hundreds of stars and the limitless resources of billions of asteroids, then material scarcity ceases to exist. Not needing money would be the default. Money would be a luxury, something used to obtain luxuries.


Kira isn't in Starfleet, and for the purpose of a clear example of diversity Kira isn't a religious Human who serves right next to a atheist Human, Showing that Starfleet doesn't restrict either from openly following their beliefs. And also openly expressing their beliefs in a public fashion.
Why does that need to be shown? Of course Starfleet wouldn't "restrict" religious freedom. That's a given. Sure, it'd be nice to have a depiction of religious diversity among humans in the Federation -- we've done that a fair amount in the books, with a Jewish captain married to a rabbi in Corps of Engineers, some Muslim characters here and there, and so forth. But just because ST is mainly secular-humanist in its focus doesn't mean there'd be any actual discrimination against religion.

Anyway, if you want to see Starfleet officers expressing belief in God, then watch TOS.


I would really like to see an officer explain openly that the reason the viewers didn't see any gays in Starfleet was that we were prevented from serving, for a reason that was formally support by some members in the Federation, and also some officers in Starfleet. Show the Federation is gaining diversity on a continuous process.

Don't just hand wave the absence of gays away with "Oh gays were alway there, you just didn't see them."
I understand your reasons for suggesting that, but it makes no sense to assume that the 24th-century Federation would still be subject to a prejudice that we're rapidly transcending in the present. That would be like writing a story to explain why TOS used 1960s-vintage dials and buttons on its props. It's not necessary. It's just a consequence of the fact that any work of fiction is going to be shaped by the limits of the era in which it's made. You just have to assume that the technology was "really" more advanced than the makers of the television show were able to make it look at the time, and by the same token, that the crews were "really" more diverse than they appeared to be.

The novels have been saying "gays were always there" for better than a dozen years now, and I haven't heard many complaints -- except from the idiots who don't want gays to be there at all.


And who the hell said anything about "human viewpoints?"
That would have been me. Starfleet ... I can't see influences from the other cultures. It has a Human style military structure, the rank system is American/British ... they have the rank of "Commander."

Other than "class M planet" perhaps coming from the Vulcans, what absolutely screams Vulcan to you?

Or Andorian? Or anybody else?
See above. The problem with the depiction exists, but the thing about fiction is that it's an interpretation of an idea. What I and my fellow tie-in authors often do is present a different interpretation that compensates for some of the oversights of onscreen interpretations. TV and movies require a certain shorthand; it's not easy for them to get into the nuances of a multicultural civilization, and easier to code aliens as alien and the Federation as human. Prose fiction allows a more nuanced interpretation.



Knight Templar wrote: View Post
And Christopher you're showing a lack of imagination...again.

You can have a broadly upbeat and optimistic show but still have a captain whose general personality and disposition are the opposite of that most of the time.
Oh, I can imagine it. I just don't want it. I think what you're suggesting is the thing that lacks imagination, because it's just a rehash of what countless other TV shows already do. Embracing optimism is the fresh, different approach, because so very, very many people just buy into the lazy and fashionable assumption that all you need in order to be smart and sophisticated is to be as dark and cynical as possible.
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Old September 2 2012, 04:35 AM   #50
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

chardman wrote: View Post
Basically, Knight Templar wants Star Trek to feature the kind of diverse personalities that would realistically never make it past the presumably thorough psych evaluations that Starfleet undoubtedly requires all of its cadets/personnel. If someone's motivations for exploring the galaxy are rooted in getting revenge, or fulfilling some fanatical quest, or anything else so psychotic as what he's suggested as possible motivations, one would hope that they'd be culled from the program prior to graduating from the Academy, and would never, ever make it so far as a shipboard posting.
Lets suppose the USS Discovery, a Galaxy Class starship was conducting an away mission, and the captain was the last to beam back aboard his ship, unfortunately for him, he was caught in an ion storm when this happened and ended up in the Mirror Universe as a rogue rebel, the rogue rebel, who was conducting sabotage operations against a Klingon outpost suddenly finds himself in a starfleet uniform with the rank of captain, he's never before commanded such a large starship, but his situation is much improved from what it was before. Fortunately he picks up the clues rather quickly about what he is supposed to be and is a good actor, of course he is an impostor, but he keeps up the charade for as long as possible. How long do you think he could keep it up?
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Old September 2 2012, 05:52 AM   #51
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Forever since most people aren't thinking "omg he must be the MU version of himself" every time someone has a bad day. I might try using this as an excuse at some point though, see how it goes down.
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Old September 2 2012, 02:30 PM   #52
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Christopher wrote: View Post

If what you want to see are protagonists that are always that dark, or even worse, then you do not want Star Trek.
I'm glad someone gets what Star Trek actually is.
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Old September 2 2012, 02:36 PM   #53
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

In Voyager, once they joined Janeway's crew, their maquis opinions quickly became muted.
Because the political divide created by a territorial dispute doesn't matter when you're 70,000 light-years from home and unlikely to ever get back.

A religious divide would've served the concept of Voyager better than a political one.
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Old September 2 2012, 02:48 PM   #54
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Mars wrote: View Post
Fortunately he picks up the clues rather quickly about what he is supposed to be and is a good actor, of course he is an impostor, but he keeps up the charade for as long as possible. How long do you think he could keep it up?
teacake wrote: View Post
Forever since most people aren't thinking "omg he must be the MU version of himself" every time someone has a bad day.
Not according to "Mirror, Mirror." Our guys were able to imitate their Imperial counterparts readily enough, but the Mirror landing party was just too intrinsically violent and hateful, and Spock very rapidly caught on that they were impostors/duplicates. As Spock said, "It was far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them to behave like civilized men."
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Old September 2 2012, 02:50 PM   #55
Knight Templar
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

BillJ wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post

In Voyager, once they joined Janeway's crew, their maquis opinions quickly became muted.
Because the political divide created by a territorial dispute doesn't matter when you're 70,000 light-years from home and unlikely to ever get back.

A religious divide would've served the concept of Voyager better than a political one.
Actually, it was because as IIRC Brannon Braga himself said, the producers DID NOT WANT conflict on Voyager as was originally indicated.

What they wanted was to basically remake ST:TNG in a slightly different setting with a different ship and crew.

According to Sci-Fi Universe (great magazine), Berman, Taylor and Piller were very surprised that fans did not embrace and enjoy Voyager the same way they did Next Generation.
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Old September 2 2012, 02:56 PM   #56
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Knight Templar wrote: View Post

What they wanted was to basically remake ST:TNG in a slightly different setting with a different ship and crew.
That would've been as bad as the Maquis/Starfleet stuff we got.
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Old September 2 2012, 02:58 PM   #57
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Knight Templar wrote: View Post
Actually, it was because as IIRC Brannon Braga himself said, the producers DID NOT WANT conflict on Voyager as was originally indicated.

What they wanted was to basically remake ST:TNG in a slightly different setting with a different ship and crew.
I think it was more UPN that wanted to suppress conflict. After all, it was Berman, Piller, and Taylor who created the Maquis specifically in order to give VGR a set of characters that didn't agree with the Starfleet party line and could serve as a source of shipboard conflict. So the producers wanted something that had more built-in conflict than TNG -- and why wouldn't they, after they'd spent years chafing against TNG's restrictions and struggling to come up with good stories without main-character conflict? But UPN insisted "give us more TNG."
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Old September 2 2012, 04:20 PM   #58
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Knight Templar wrote: View Post
Actually, it was because as IIRC Brannon Braga himself said, the producers DID NOT WANT conflict on Voyager as was originally indicated.

What they wanted was to basically remake ST:TNG in a slightly different setting with a different ship and crew.
I think it was more UPN that wanted to suppress conflict. After all, it was Berman, Piller, and Taylor who created the Maquis specifically in order to give VGR a set of characters that didn't agree with the Starfleet party line and could serve as a source of shipboard conflict. So the producers wanted something that had more built-in conflict than TNG -- and why wouldn't they, after they'd spent years chafing against TNG's restrictions and struggling to come up with good stories without main-character conflict? But UPN insisted "give us more TNG."
Kind of a strange source for conflict though since what little power the Maquis do have exists in the TMZ between the Federation and Cardassian Empire. Otherwise the Maquis are mere criminals in the eyes of the Federation. And the running of a starship isn't a democracy, Janeway can't be taking a poll for any major decision she makes.
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Old September 2 2012, 05:41 PM   #59
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Fortunately he picks up the clues rather quickly about what he is supposed to be and is a good actor, of course he is an impostor, but he keeps up the charade for as long as possible. How long do you think he could keep it up?
teacake wrote: View Post
Forever since most people aren't thinking "omg he must be the MU version of himself" every time someone has a bad day.
Not according to "Mirror, Mirror." Our guys were able to imitate their Imperial counterparts readily enough, but the Mirror landing party was just too intrinsically violent and hateful, and Spock very rapidly caught on that they were impostors/duplicates. As Spock said, "It was far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them to behave like civilized men."
But its easier for one man to keep a secret than an entire landing party.
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Old September 2 2012, 06:25 PM   #60
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Re: Why Is Diversity Focused Only On Race & Species?

^The number of people involved is irrelevant. Given how brutal and sociopathic even just Mirror Kirk was, there's no way he could've avoided tipping off his crewmates that there was something wrong with him.
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