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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old September 1 2012, 05:41 PM   #496
Pauln6
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
^You can't know that, and neither could Kirk. Would you entrust the survival of the entire Federation to a guess?
Lol. I assume that's a tongue in cheek comment unless you've forgotten TOS and Star Treks I, II, III, IV, V, and VI? Kirk's entire career is founded on lucky guesses!

Plus, while I'm talking about writer's choice rather than in character justification, we can also observe that:

1. Nero has more weapons and his weapons are way more powerful than Kirk's.
2. The gravity of a singularity powerful enough to prevent a ship from pulling away at maximum warp from a distance of a few thousand meters would crush and detonate a torpedo in a heartbeat, thus preventing Kirk's weapons from doing as much damage as they should.
3 Nero's own torpedoes would detonate close to his ship.

If anything, Nero's own weapons would stand a greater chance of destroying the ship than Kirk's but it's sort of moot, since the writers would have taken care of that issue if they had decided to write the ending that way. Kirk wouldn't have to guess because Nero's ship would have been obliterated by his own hatred.
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Old September 1 2012, 05:49 PM   #497
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

So, in Arena Kirk should have killed the Gorn and let the Metron destroy his ship because of the possibility that the Gorn might see mercy as weakness?

Yhere was no mention by anyone that they thought Nero could survive going through the black hole.

"Your ship is compromised.
You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide."

Is Kirk simply making this up or should we assume that he's basing it on sensor information? If he's lying about this, is he also lying about the offer of assistance?

"Just kidding! Fire everything!"

There's a difference in how the ship enters the black hole, if the engines are operating, where the black hole is forming, how much red matter is used. Or are you saying that Vulcan wasn't destroyed but simply moved into the past? After all, it's even bigger than the Narada and the block hole was forming inside the planet, just like one was forming inside the ship.

I'd say that Nero had about the same chance of surviving as Amanda did.

What Kirk did was an execution of a helpless man. There was no indication that the Narada was even capable of charging or firing weapons. If they could, why weren't they?
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Old September 1 2012, 06:27 PM   #498
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

RPJOB wrote: View Post
There was no indication that the Narada was even capable of charging or firing weapons. If they could, why weren't they?
On Romulan mining ships, everyone stops for tiffin.

Hang on though - don't you suffer time dilation the closer you get to a singularity? Whoever said you cannae change the laws of physics? That dude was crazy!
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Old September 1 2012, 06:39 PM   #499
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Obviously the "red matter" singularities didn't behave anything like real singularities.

Look -- what's in the film is what's in the film. You can use it as an excuse to whine and gripe and be perpetually negative... or you can use your imagination and try to find a constructive way to rationalize what we were given so that it isn't so bad. I don't see any point in wasting your energy on just complaining all the time. What does it gain you or anybody else? I'd rather take the constructive option. If you don't like something, don't just complain about it -- make it better.
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Old September 1 2012, 10:54 PM   #500
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Well, personally I'm not moaning and griping for the sake of it. I enjoyed the movie but I also really enjoy poking fun at the silliness of it all.

And part of the problem with what we see on screen is that it leads us to the conclusion that maybe Kirk is not as fit for command as Pike seems to think he is - it really smacks of that episode of the Simpsons where Homer is put in charge of the submarine because the captain likes the cut of his jib and that was hilarious. He succeeds because the writers want him to, not because of any great aptitude.

And I really don't see any way to rationalise or improve upon Kirk stumbling across Spock in a cave. There are so many things wrong with that scenario not even the Universe can fix it

Even so, coming back to the comics, aside from some of the silliness that was already present in the original episodes, they are keeping the characters on a relatively even keel so far.
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Old September 1 2012, 11:11 PM   #501
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
You can use it as an excuse to whine and gripe and be perpetually negative...
Which, to me, always seems counter to the positive messages sent to us by Star Trek.

In a different online place, I see people griping about Peter Jackson's late decision to expand "The Hobbit" into three films now, instead of two. The whining and griping is taking some bizarre turns. Not only are some concerned there won't be enough material for three films, others are actually complaining that there will be only a six-month break between the last two premieres, thus robbing them of their traditional Christmas treat. When they haven't even had the first one yet.

Getting this back onto topic, we see lots more griping with IDW's ST stuff. Five-parters are too long, two-parters should be three, single issues are "filler", tell us more about Keenser/who wants to waste time learning about Keenser.

Poor ol' B. Cumberbatch got fans cranky for complaining that he was tired of keeping secrets from them. And then - he failed to be explicit enough in his quoted whining to give any clues as to what secret role he was playing.

Aaaaggghhh. It's contagious. I'm griping about griping.

Life is too short for such negativity.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Well, personally I'm not moaning and griping for the sake of it.
Except if it concerns roles for female characters. (Perhaps Bob Orci deliberately encourages IDW to use female regulars sparingly, because so did TOS? And the movie?)

And I really don't see any way to rationalise or improve upon Kirk stumbling across Spock in a cave.
I do. Because we've seen before that, in its attempts to self-correct timelines that have been altered, the universe does seem to draw certain people together. I accepted this seeming coincidence as part of that repair. Ditto Scotty turning up, right on queue. (When this happens to me in real life, that "six degrees of separation" stuff, encountering certain people in various situations over and over, at different times in my life, it can be quite chilling. Even on Facebook, it's incredible who can turn out to be a "friend of a friend". I once encountered two people I know very well, from totally different times/places in my life, sitting together in a random park eating lunch; they'd known each other for many years.)

Even so, coming back to the comics, aside from some of the silliness that was already present in the original episodes, they are keeping the characters on a relatively even keel so far.
Yep. By design, since IDW is still treading water, letting the films unfold first.
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; September 1 2012 at 11:27 PM. Reason: more
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Old September 1 2012, 11:27 PM   #502
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Aaaaggghhh. It's contagious. I'm griping about griping.

Life is too short for such negativity.
Lol - that's why I don't view the griping negatively. Turn that negative into a positive! I think it's hilarious the way people just can't let go of their own personal opinions, as if the writers had only picked their idea instead nobody would be griping at all - lol. Deep down I'd even love to think that it's true of my own opinions but of course that's nonsense.

I fell into a pit of despair when I saw how terrible the science was in Prometheus. I won't say it ruined the film for me but I will say that it stopped the movie getting anywhere near the same high esteem in which I hold Alien or Aliens. For every fan who'd agree with me there would be another three who'd have preferred more pew pew pew and explosions and less credible science.

Having said that, there are some things that are definitely right and definitely wrong. HAN SHOT FIRST!

The sad thing about the female issue is that it would take very little to stop me moaning and yet they continually fail to reach my relatively low standards. :P (in fairness to the comic, they are taking plodding steps in the right direction and if the redshirts issue has roughly equal male, female (and maybe even alien) security guards, I will give them an enthusiastic pass.

And there you go with the cave thing. I thought nobody would EVER find that contrived plot device to acceptable. I suppose what I don't understand is why the universe would care. This timeline is exactly how it is supposed to be. Many Worlds theory includes every possible timeline and every possible timeline includes timelines impacted by time travellers. I will concede that it's impossible to defend Trek one way or another on this issue.
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Old September 1 2012, 11:35 PM   #503
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - that's why I don't view the griping negatively. Turn that negative into a positive!
Sure, but it can be very destructive. Fans wonder aloud why people think that avid fans are embarrassing, and the fans manage to reinforce the stereotypes while they are in loud denial.

as if the writers had only picked their idea instead nobody would be griping at all - lol.
Agreed. I don't know any work of fiction that is acclaimed by 100% of the audience.

I fell into a pit of despair when I saw how terrible the science was in Prometheus. I won't say it ruined the film for me but I will say that it stopped the movie getting anywhere near the same high esteem in which I hold Alien or Aliens.
As someone who was too scared to see "Alien" on the big screen, but later was able to enjoy "Aliens", and who saw the other sequels out of a sense of completionist duty, I actually enjoyed my time in the cinema watching "Prometheus".

Was there a problem with the science?

Having said that, there are some things that are definitely right and definitely wrong. HAN SHOT FIRST!
In which alternate timeline?

This timeline is exactly how it is supposed to be. Many Worlds theory includes every possbile timeline and every possible timeline includes timelines impacted by time travellers.
Ah, but it seems that, in all/most of the parallel timelines, Kirk and Spock are destined to work alongside each other, and Kirk is destined to captain the USS Enterprise. And Spock Prime seems to know this.
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Old September 1 2012, 11:51 PM   #504
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Lol - touche!

Bleuch - I hated the way a team of scientists in Prometheus acted like they'd never heard of scientific method. I don't mind blue collar grunts doing scientifically dumb stuff (although Nero pushed the boundaries somewhat) but I've only got an O'level in physics from 1987 and the stupidity of the characters was really obvious even to me.

There were also many smarter ways to get Kirk and Spock working together.
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Old September 2 2012, 12:18 AM   #505
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
And there you go with the cave thing. I thought nobody would EVER find that contrived plot device to acceptable. I suppose what I don't understand is why the universe would care. This timeline is exactly how it is supposed to be. Many Worlds theory includes every possible timeline and every possible timeline includes timelines impacted by time travellers.
The way Roberto Orci rationalized it in interviews was in terms of probability. The idea is that certain outcomes are more probable than others, and that the majority of timelines will tend toward the more probable outcomes just as a matter of statistics -- which can give the appearance that the cosmos is somehow "pushing" things in that direction. So the screenwriters' thinking is that if something happens to push a timeline away from that high-probability track, there will be a tendency to correct back toward the high-probability track. It's a little bit fudged for story reasons, but it's not entirely devoid of merit as an idea.

The way I implicitly rationalized it in DTI: Watching the Clock is that if there's an entanglement between two timelines -- if one is created due to intervention from another, but circumstances allow the timelines to coexist rather than collapsing together -- then that partial entanglement will sort of contaminate the altered timeline with aspects of the quantum phase state of the original, and that will affect quantum probabilities so that events in the altered timeline still happen similarly to those in the original. In my mind, this also explains why the Mirror Universe hews so close to the Prime timeline even after centuries apart; I figure the arrival of the Defiant in the MU's 2150s created an entanglement between the timelines and created an influence that caused similar events to occur, the same people to be born and end up in the same places, etc., at least up to a point.

Anyway, it's not that huge a coincidence that Spock Prime and young Kirk were on the same part of Delta Vega at the same time. Presumably they were both placed there so they'd be in proximity to the Starfleet station where Scott was: Nero put Spock Prime near enough to it that he could be rescued and have to live with the fate of Vulcan, and Spock sent Kirk's escape pod there so that he could be retrieved and protected until he could be brought back to Earth for court-martial. If the cave was the only shelter in the area, it's not so unlikely that they both would've ended up there.
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Old September 2 2012, 12:31 AM   #506
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

In fairness to the writers I can't have my cake and eat it. If every probability occurs somewhere in the multiverse then there must be (at least) one where Spock and Kirk meet in a cave. We just happen to be viewing the universe where that very improbable event occurred.
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Old September 2 2012, 12:40 AM   #507
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Not really that improbable, as I said.
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Old September 2 2012, 01:04 AM   #508
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Not really that improbable, as I said.
Not improbable to meet on the same planet. Just improbable to meet in the same cave.
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Old September 2 2012, 03:32 AM   #509
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

^Again, I already addressed that specific point. It's logical that they both would've been deposited near the Starfleet base, and it's logical that they both would've sought shelter in the area. If that cave was the only shelter, it's not that unlikely that they would've both found it. Yes, it is a bit of a coincidence that Kirk happened to head in that direction from the escape pod, but it's a lot less of a coincidence than if they'd been placed on the planet randomly. And for all we know, he'd been following a spiral path outward from his landing site, so he would've found the cave eventually.
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Old September 2 2012, 06:56 AM   #510
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - that's why I don't view the griping negatively. Turn that negative into a positive!
Sure, but it can be very destructive. Fans wonder aloud why people think that avid fans are embarrassing, and the fans manage to reinforce the stereotypes while they are in loud denial.

There's many different kinds of fans. Some want to see Trek tell better, more compelling and thought provoking stories. Some, swallow up anything with a Star Trek logo on it regardless of quality. Some, just tune in for the space battles. If anything, the fans that get the most negative press are those that dress in costume simply because they're the most visible. Don't limp everyone into one group. Sure;y, the disagreements that happen on here are proof that there is no one kind of fan.

Did Spock actually expect Kirk to set out for the outpost? He had no weapon, no food or survival equipment. Even the pod itself told him to stay put.

And not only did Kirk & Old Spock have to end up in the same general area as the outpost, Spock had to be on a line between the outpost and where Kirk landed. Imagine two people trying to get to the Empire State Building. Start one in Queen and the other in New Jersey. How likely are they to cross paths before they get to their destination?

Unfortunately, this version of Star Trek had it's start as a summer, popcorn movie. Good for the box office. Not so good for serious storytelling.

It was fun. It just doesn't hold up very well to scrutiny. We had a major change for Spock. You can hardly get more life changing than what he went through. Kirk, on the other hand, is pretty much the same person at the end as he is at the beginning. The rest of the crew, as is usual for Trek movies, were pretty much window dressing. They hit their character marks but other than Uhura, we really didn't learn too mcuh about. And even Uhura's stroy was simply as a side story to Spock.

There was no leadership shown by Kirk. No reason for why his prime crew was so loyal to him. Why are these people follwoing him other than they get to be on the coolest ship and, in Spock's case, because his older self told him to. Spock-Prime told Kirk about their friendship and yet, at the end, we didn't see Kirk ask Spock to join him. It was all Spock's choice. Everyone seemed to need Kirk. Kirk didn't seem to need anyone.

That is all.
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