A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[Kosh Naranek]

Captaindemotion wrote:

---

Yeah, there's Dany, there's the one who has returned with 'Griff' and potentially Jon.

While Dany and Jon are both decent and probably more deserving than most of the other candidates and the new guy also seems, according to Varys, to have been properly equipped and trained for the role, I must admit that I'd be disappointed if the throne ultimately simply reverts back to the Targareans - who did deserve to be deposed, even if Rhaegar may have turned out to be a great King.

Maybe the seven kingdoms will break back up into their constituent parts?

Right now - the other claimants are faltering.
1. Stannis is just too unyielding and lacks money + support.
2. Tommen might seem somewhat secure, but the oblivion to what is actually happening will get the boy on the Iron Throne I think.
3. The Iron Born's plan to become a major player hinges on Dany marrying a Greyjoy.

Right now it seems that the stage is set for a T to sweep in on the back of a dragon, but things may change.

Of course maybe the white walkers will just kill everyone, and it won't matter. A big theme of the books seems to be petty lords squabbling over a chair when cold white death is stalking in from the North.

[Captaindemotion]

^Yeah, the breaking-up option has to be considered, though I think it has looked less likely since the Red Wedding.

In some ways, I think there would be a nicer symmetry if it turned out that Jon was Ned's son after all and some sort of alliance between him and Dany - which would be a meeting of Ice and Fire - was what saved the realm.

[Kosh Naranek]

Captaindemotion wrote:

---

^Yeah, the breaking-up option has to be considered, though I think it has looked less likely since the Red Wedding.

In some ways, I think there would be a nicer symmetry if it turned out that Jon was Ned's son after all and some sort of alliance between him and Dany - which would be a meeting of Ice and Fire - was what saved the realm.

If Robb did sign a document that turned Jon Snow into Jon Stark, Jon would get what he always wanted. (Does something signed by a would-be dead king still count?) Ultimately, if Robb took steps to legitimize Jon, what would be important to Jon is finding out that Robb wanted to made him a Stark legally. I think that would mean the world to Jon.

I felt so bad for Jon when he was thinking on Stannis' offer. He remembered playing with Robb and shouting that he was "Lord of Wintefell." Robb said that Jon could never be the Lord of Winterfell because his lady mother said Jon was a bastard. (I really hated Cat for her loathing of Jon. She should have taken some of that ire out on her precious Ned - not a small child. I understood why she hated Jon, but still...)

I would laugh my backside off if the bastard of Winterfell defeats the others and marries the beautiful princess.

[Anwar]

She probably did take out ire on Ned, but Ned worked his @$$ off to be a good husband and earn her love and respect in the next 13 years. Jon (apparently) never did much of anything to earn her respect and love. Plus his moping about how awful his life is really is unbearable considering his life was actually pretty damn good and better than 99% of the rest of Westeros.

[Venardhi]

He wasn't would-be. As far as the north was concerned he was King. The war once Ned was dead was really about deciding where the border would be since they couldn't just abandon the Riverlands. The question is more "does the south give a shit?" and the answer to that is probably no.

[Captaindemotion]

Kosh Naranek wrote:

---

I would laugh my backside off if the bastard of Winterfell defeats the others and marries the beautiful princess.

I would absolutely love for the story to end like this, sentimental sap that I am, but I suspect that GRRM has different ideas.

[Kosh Naranek]

I have not made it to the end of book 5 yet, but thanks to some friends and my inability to stay out of this thread....

I know Jon is stabbed at the end of book 5.

Do you think Martin will leave him dead to reinforce the brutality and senselessness of some deaths?

[Captaindemotion]

^If he does, it would seem to render a lot of what he has set up somewhat pointless. But he does love killing off members of the Stark family.

My own best guess is that he will die but that Melisandre will bring him back to life. And once that happens, all bets are off (his vow to the Nightwatch, for one).

[Kosh Naranek]

Do you think his ability to warg will mean his memories will be intact unlike Cat and Beric? I assume the prologue with Vymar was put in the book for a reason...

[Captaindemotion]

^Hadn't thought of that.

I'm sort of working on the assumption that he will be resurrected sooner than they will be, because Melisandre is close to hand (poor Cat was dead for 3 days and starting to rot...), so I've sort of taken it that the resurrected Jon will be closer to the original than any of the others.

[137th Gebirg]

Perhaps that's why Melisandre chose to remain at the wall when Stannis went out on his campaign to retake Winterfell - she saw Jon's death in her fires and knew she would have to breathe life back into him at some point. This would make sense if she's also starting to suspect that Jon may be Azor Ahai reborn and not Stannis after all.

[Kosh Naranek]

137th Gebirg wrote:

---

Perhaps that's why Melisandre chose to remain at the wall when Stannis went out on his campaign to retake Winterfell - she saw Jon's death in her fires and knew she would have to breathe life back into him at some point. This would make sense if she's also starting to suspect that Jon may be Azor Ahai reborn and not Stannis after all.

That is a good point. She may have decided that Jon is Azor Ahai.

Martin has spent quite a lot of time building Jon up - hinting around at his origins, etc. It seems like killing him now (for good) would undo all of that. But, he could do it anyway just to mess with us.

There have been hints that Stannis is not who Mel thinks he is. Aemon said flat out that Stannis did not have lightbringer.

[Nerys Myk]

Can you "untake" the black? Jon's stuck at the Wall if you can't, no matter who's son he is.

[Kelthaz]

Kings can do whatever the hell they want. Stannis wants Jon to "untake" the black, so if Jon is willing it's going to happen.

[Kegg]

Kosh Naranek wrote:

---

If Jon is a T, and the kid claiming to be Aegon is not a fabulous fake...That would mean that there are 3 Targeryn claimants to the throne running about.

As we've discussed before with Jon that - if he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna - a claim to the throne would really depend on whether or not Rhaegar ever married Lyanna.

Now Rhaegar was already married to Elia of Dorne, but bigamy is something that Targaryens have indulged in in the past. If he married Lyanna Jon has a hypothetical claim, if not he's just a bastard.

Of course, Aegon - as the probably elder son of Rhaegar's first wife - has a better claim anyway. If he is indeed really Aegon, I know there are people who like to speculate he's descended from the female line of the Blackfyres (legitimized Targaryen bastards who tried twice to take the throne).

Kelthaz wrote:

---

Kings can do whatever the hell they want. Stannis wants Jon to "untake" the black, so if Jon is willing it's going to happen.

Basically. Stannis has the authority to not just have Jon 'untake' the black, but also to legitimize his heritage and thus make him the default claimant on Winterfell.

..but who in authority would give a potential Targaryen claimant the right to leave the order? They'd have to both have the authority and be able to benefit - like, say, Queen Daenerys legitimizing and marrying Jon Targaryen. If not that scenario can't think of any cases it'd be useful.