A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[Brendan Moody]

137th Gebirg wrote:

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It seems to me that Jaime was the first to truly break the chains of his dead father's will and start to write his own personal destiny.

I think Jaime was trying to do that prior to Tywin's death, but more recently the fact of his father's murder and his own inadvertent involvement in it-- "Tyrion loosed the crossbow, but I loosed Tyrion"-- has changed things somewhat. However you want to interpret Genna's line about Tywin and Tyrion, the interesting thing is that Jaime remembers it a couple times afterward, in a context that suggests he disagrees with and resents Genna's belief that he's not like Tywin. Now he seems to want to replace his father as much as to outgrow him.

Some of the most explicit stuff about Aerys and Joanna is in A Dance with Dragons. Personally I think it's all a red herring-- I'm not big on theories where everyone is everyone else's secret relative-- but we'll see.

[Kosh Naranek]

So - Is Tom O'Sevens at Riverrun at Lady Stoneheart's behest? If he is there to kill, he can get a two for - a Lannister and a Frey.

It seems that Beric's band are becoming as bad as those they hunt. Lem and the others seemed kindly and somewhat honorable when Arya met them. But seen through Brienne's eyes, they seem little better than murderers. Thoros of Myr appears so melancholy now. They have lost their way it seems.

[Kosh Naranek]

I am pretty sure Dany is an idiot.

I liked her in the first book. I had compassion for her and saw within her the potential for greatness.

Now I just want to reach into the pages of the book and slap her. She is sitting around piddling in the desert while her "children" run amuck. The chick wastes her time listening to every little matter. There is a reason why the kings of Westeros had a council. Granted I get that she wants to be there for the good, the bad and the ugly. But why can't she sit around all day once a week and then dole out jobs to others? She seems to be as suspicious as her father.

The only Ts that were/are interesting are dead. I loved old Aemon. I really like reading about Rhaegar and the old kings. However, I loathe the one we are left with. I would not let Dany babysit a dog I liked much less rule Westeros.

[Icemizer]

^ Its all part of her growth process, which is admittedly verrrrryyyy slow.

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Very slow indeed. Which, to be fair, is probably how it would go in "real life" as well. High-born royalty in Europe spend years learning the finer points of diplomacy under many tutors and mentors. She's doing it pretty much on her own (albeit with a small handful of advisers whom she always seems to keep at arm's length) and at her own speed, in anticipation one day of taking all she learned back to Westeros. I applaud her intent - to be the best queen she can be to the people of her homeland, but it is getting admittedly ponderous. I'm in ADwD right now and it's getting to be amusing all the people who are popping out of the woodwork now to marry her.

And I also got to the part where Barriston Selmy

tells Dany about her father's rather strong interest in the woman who became Tywin Lannister's wife. I'm starting to seriously wonder if Jaime & Cersei really do come from Targarian blood. It would explain how they seem to always consciously rationalize their own incestuous relationship by saying, "well, the Targarian's did it! Why can't we??" Tyrion may truly be Tywin Lannister's only begotten child. In fact, Tywin may have hated and vilified Tyrion all those years, not because he was a dwarf or caused his mother to die in childbirth, but because he was a constant reminder of a dark stain of secret dishonor on House Lannister that Tywin has been forced to internalize for nigh on 30 years. That shit can seriously eat away at a man's soul and make him very unpleasant to be around after a while. Aunt Genna's conversation with Jaime may very well be one of the biggest bombshell reveals in the entire series of books that has been completely glossed over. Jaime seemed completely unaffected by it (almost unbelievably) after she told him, as he blithely continued on at Riverrun as if it was just another day in the Seven Kingdoms.

[Brendan Moody]

Hearing petitions is a pretty standard part of Westerosi royal tradition. It was unwise to conquer Meereen in the first place, and more unwise still to stay, but I don't buy that it's stupid of Daenerys to govern the city herself, especially since (some of) the people love her, not her functionaries, and since the pool of possible individuals she might delegate to is limited. That, I think, is a large part of the problem with Daenerys: she doesn't have any knowledgeable advisers she can be guided by and entrust things to. Barristan is noble and loyal, but he's hardly a political genius, and a lifetime in the institution of the Kingsguard has made him too deferential, especially when faced with a highly confident monarch like Daenerys. That's what Tyrion could be good for, if he ever gets to Daenerys and she's able to recognize his skill: he has the intelligence and the cheek necessary to get through to her.

If Genna had actually being telling Jaime something about his biological parentage, it would be a bombshell. But that's pretty evidently not how she meant it.

[Kosh Naranek]

I understand that she is learning to be a real queen, but gods it does not stop it from being a tad tedious. It is probably being exacerbated by my cool feelings toward the character at this point in the books. I don’t hate her per se, but I don’t have a great deal of confidence in her abilities either.

I think at the heart of it my issue is this – She is going to invade Westeros and bring more bloodshed, because she feels she is the rightful monarch. However, she is also (as far as she knows) the last her of her line. At this point she has no hope of progeny.

Therefore, she may have the right, but her path seems to lead nowhere in terms of the kingdom. (Plus, every time she rags on Ned, she loses a point in my book. Rhaegar took the man’s sister. Her father strangled Brandon to death and burnt his father to a crisp. Ned would have been dead too if Jon Arryn had not told Aerys to stuff it.)

Jon's turn as Lord Commander is more interesting, but to be fair, he had Ned pounding lessons of being in charge into his head for years. I think Jon is erring in sending away all his friends. Maeaster Aemon and Sam are gone. He is now sending Pyp and Grenn away. Who is going to watch his back?

If I had to pick a king I would chose Stannis right now, but his allowing Melisandre to rip all other gods from the people will not end well I think. Plus, in the end I think Stannis’ decision to let the Wildlings beyond the Wall will bite Jon in the butt. The men of the Watch are grumbling…

If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son, I say he will be TSOIAF. I hope he does not die though. Jon seems doomed to me.

[Kegg]

Brendan Moody wrote:

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Hearing petitions is a pretty standard part of Westerosi royal tradition. It was unwise to conquer Meereen in the first place, and more unwise still to stay,

It's a far wiser act than abandoning the city to others, which is what she did with Astapor (with pretty terrible results). Her reasons for going to Westeros at this point are largely theorectical, when you get down to it - my ancestors held this, so I should, too. It's something we readers really want because it'd immediately connect Dany's narrative to the rest of the novel series (and Martin's grounded pseudo-English Westeros is a lot better to read about than his Orientalism-laden stereotypes), but that doesn't make it automatically the best course for her. It's a land she has entirely secondhand information about and so far no concrete evidence she'd get any kind of support. Abandoning a bird in hand for two on a bush and all that.

That, I think, is a large part of the problem with Daenerys: she doesn't have any knowledgeable advisers she can be guided by and entrust things to.

Pretty much. Most of her problems in ADWD have to do with trusting someone she really shouldn't have.

Kosh Naranek wrote:

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Therefore, she may have the right, but her path seems to lead nowhere in terms of the kingdom. (Plus, every time she rags on Ned, she loses a point in my book.

Ned Stark is a man she's never met, who she knows about mostly because he's partly responsible for the annihilation of her entire family, the dynastic massacre that took her father, brother, and smashed the skull of her infant nephew. As far as she knows she's got no family left. She doesn't have as informed a perspective on Ned as the reader does but her opinion of him is perfectly reasonable considering what she knows and who she is.

If I had to pick a king I would chose Stannis right now, but his allowing Melisandre to rip all other gods from the people will not end well I think.

Stannis is honorable to the point of being impractical. He's Ned Stark only nobody likes him and he's meaner. I love Stannis, but I don't think he's got a chance in hell of being the King.

[Kelthaz]

If I had to pick a king, I think I would go with Tommen. His mother no longer controls him like she once did and he has a good wife who will toughen him up and educate him in the ways of politics.

[Captaindemotion]

So, if Jon is really a Targarean and he is the Song of Ice and Fire - is the whole story just going to have been one of the Restoration of House Targarean?

[137th Gebirg]

Kelthaz wrote:

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If I had to pick a king, I think I would go with Tommen. His mother no longer controls him like she once did and he has a good wife who will toughen him up and educate him in the ways of politics.

The boy needs to grow up fast, though. Lots of bad stuff is brewing all around him and most of the people sequestered in King's Landing have very little idea what. Nobody there believes Dany has 3 dragons, or is aware of the other significant goings-on in Essos, nor do they really believe there is any real danger to the north beyond the Wall. They seem completely detached from the Bolton/Stannis/Ironborn struggle up there as well.

Tommen is living in a rather sound-proof bubble and I fear he'll not be there for long.

Captaindemotion wrote:

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So, if Jon is really a Targarean and he is the Song of Ice and Fire - is the whole story just going to have been one of the Restoration of House Targarean?

Considering how many there still seem to be bouncing around out there, that may very well be the case, yes. At the very least, play a major role in what's to come. The dragons will need to become a major player in the game. In fact, constant references to the "Game" of thrones and the chess-like game of "Cyvasse" in the story itself makes me feel like all the various "gods" of this world are playing a massive game of Cyvasse, with all the major characters as players.

[Captaindemotion]

Yeah, there's Dany, there's the one who has returned with 'Griff' and potentially Jon.

While Dany and Jon are both decent and probably more deserving than most of the other candidates and the new guy also seems, according to Varys, to have been properly equipped and trained for the role, I must admit that I'd be disappointed if the throne ultimately simply reverts back to the Targareans - who did deserve to be deposed, even if Rhaegar may have turned out to be a great King.

[Klaus]

Kegg wrote:

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It's a far wiser act than abandoning the city to others, which is what she did with Astapor (with pretty terrible results).

It seemed to me that was one of her biggest motivations for her staying in Meereen, at least initially... the guilt for what happened to Astapor. Though inertia set in after that...

[Kosh Naranek]

Kosh Naranek wrote:

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Therefore, she may have the right, but her path seems to lead nowhere in terms of the kingdom. (Plus, every time she rags on Ned, she loses a point in my book.

Ned Stark is a man she's never met, who she knows about mostly because he's partly responsible for the annihilation of her entire family, the dynastic massacre that took her father, brother, and smashed the skull of her infant nephew. As far as she knows she's got no family left. She doesn't have as informed a perspective on Ned as the reader does but her opinion of him is perfectly reasonable considering what she knows and who she is.


Oh I get why she hates Ned, and I don't truly hold it against her. All she knows was passed on to her by Viserys, and I am sure he told quite the tale. But, I like to unreasonably hate her every now and again for it. I liked dear old dead Ned. Granted he was something of an honor bound idiot, but he had good reasons to help bring down House T.

I think the books will have House T rise again, but I could be wrong.

If Jon is a T, and the kid claiming to be Aegon is not a fabulous fake...That would mean that there are 3 Targeryn claimants to the throne running about.

Baby Tommen is a Lannister and the decisions made by his stupid mother are going to be his undoing I fear. The Faith has been re-armed and I am sure that her decision not pay back the Bank of Braavos is going to murder an already faltering economy. The wars brought about Joffrey's decision to take Ned's head off his shoulders has killed many and will bring about famine once winter is upon them in earnest.

I like Stannis, but he is too unyeilding. Plus, snatching away people's faith is not a good plan. Now Cersei has re-armed the Faith. I wonder what they will do to those that oppose them? Melisandre says that the seven are false gods. All those men with seven pointed stars on their doublets are going to ojbect methinks.

If Jon is a T, I wonder how he will react? Would he even want the throne? At this point, I do not think that he would want it, but I could be wrong. He always wanted to be a real Stark. Would finding out he is the son of a different Stark shatter his world? All of Ned's kids seem to view him as some sort of lodestone. Makes me wonder...

[Captaindemotion]

I think that Stannis' adherence to the Red God has totally scuppered any chance he might have had of ever claiming the throne. And being bogged down in the snow in the North isn't helping much.