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Old August 31 2012, 02:50 AM   #241
Qutluch
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post

Yeah, I really don't get what Paris was doing wrong in this, beyond taking advantage of a bunch of people who just don't know better. Chakotay barely gets any screen time as is, now he's coming across as a petty mall cop.

Tuvok killing the Neelix hologram was my favorite part. Neelix is a jerk.
I like your petty mall cop comparison; dead on! Why do you think Neelix is a jerk? Isn't he just misguided? He tries very hard to make people happy...he just isn't necessarily good at it, but I think his heart is there!
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Old August 31 2012, 02:54 AM   #242
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I wonder what would have happened if Tuvok had really killed Neelix. Would Janeway have locked him in his quarters like Suder for the rest of the trip? Or would she have found some Vulcan explanation that allowed her to let him off the hook? It seems unlikely she would do without her oldest friend and adviser.
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Old August 31 2012, 04:49 AM   #243
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Dreadnought
Back to the Docs’ name!!! I had just forgot about the ongoing name game…why did they have to remind me?? The Marquis apparently found a Cardassian weapon (Dreadnought) and reprogrammed it to work to their advantage, but it disappeared into the badlands at some point. It seems that Dreadnought reappeared and has a new target. When Janeway calls the targeted planet the Minister of the planet throws Voyagers bad reputation in her face and questions whether they are really trying to help, or if it is just a rouse to throw them off so Voyager can attack with ease. I have to say that I don’t blame the Minister for questioning Voyager; I would in his place.

B’Elanna is sneaky! She programmed the weapon so well she is having difficulty disengaging it. I like how this episode highlights B’Elanna’s strength and fortitude. She really is a strong character who cares about people! It is even rather amusing to hear her basically argue with herself since Dreadnought’s voice was programmed with her own.

Back on the ship, Janeway tells the Minister of the planet that if B’Elanna does not succeed she is willing to try and disarm the weapon by running the Voyager into it, which would kill everyone in the Voyager. I have to say that Janeway’s decision is the right one, and I appreciate her ease with it. Nearly 2 million people could die if the weapon was deployed; it would have been ridiculous if the 150ish people did not try everything in their power to stop it! Toward the end of the episode B’Elanna is still fighting against the weapon’s programming and is willing to kill herself to save the planet. Eventually, she succeeds and destroys the weapon and (as we often see) she is beamed off the weapon milliseconds before it explodes!!

Favorite part: Two touching moments: One, when Paris tells Janeway thank you for everything. Two, when Tuvok requests permission to stay with her. These two minute sections show the closeness that the characters have developed over time. Voyager is good with small moments, but I would like to seem more continuity between character relationships. A long-standing joke, perhaps a relationship, something that does not just last a fleeting second before it passes!!

Least favorite part: I don’t get why Paris is so crabby, and it is never explained. Also, I would like to see Janeway and the Minister get together to celebrate!
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Old August 31 2012, 05:25 AM   #244
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
Dreadnought

Favorite part: Two touching moments: One, when Paris tells Janeway thank you for everything. Two, when Tuvok requests permission to stay with her. These two minute sections show the closeness that the characters have developed over time. Voyager is good with small moments, but I would like to seem more continuity between character relationships. A long-standing joke, perhaps a relationship, something that does not just last a fleeting second before it passes!!

Least favorite part: I don’t get why Paris is so crabby, and it is never explained. Also, I would like to see Janeway and the Minister get together to celebrate!
Well, hard to respond to this without spoilers for what comes next ... So I guess all I will say is that yes, VOY us good with small character moments. For me, it's what makes the show. And yes, some relationships do build. It takes a while, but ... yeah. And then, when you watch it all for the SECOND time, it actually comes together. Not always, but in a few good ways.

And that house arrest for murder thing? Remember that one come Season 5 ... ;-)
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Old August 31 2012, 10:13 AM   #245
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

Yeah, I really don't get what Paris was doing wrong in this, beyond taking advantage of a bunch of people who just don't know better. Chakotay barely gets any screen time as is, now he's coming across as a petty mall cop.

Tuvok killing the Neelix hologram was my favorite part. Neelix is a jerk.
I like your petty mall cop comparison; dead on! Why do you think Neelix is a jerk? Isn't he just misguided? He tries very hard to make people happy...he just isn't necessarily good at it, but I think his heart is there!
I don't doubt at all he's well intentioned. I didn't say he's evil. I just said he's a jerk. Take his behavior for Tuvok over the series of Voyager. He's constantly trying to "cheer" Tuvok up despite however many times Tuvok politely asks him to go away. This is harassment and very petty to say the least. From his behavior he thinks that because someone else has a different set of values, something is wrong with them and he has to fix it.

His need to force himself into every single situation also comes to mind. From the very start he just barges into the meeting room as if he's somehow entitled. He never asks. He repossesses the kitchen without asking and is extremely possessive with Kes to the point of almost stalking her at times and getting insanely jealous anytime anyone male speaks with her. And how many times has he just barged on the bridge, telling everyone how they should resolve a situation?

His behavior in the kitchen is the same way. How many times has Janeway walked into his kitchen with a stranger and he gets antsy because he assumes someone is taking his job? Then he has to play lord of the menu so often. He is critical of people for using their replicator rations instead of eating his food. Same jealousy/need to force himself on every situation.

Frankly, I'm surprised Janeway ever trusted him at all after that crap he pulled in the pilot by lying to Janeway about going to the Kazon to rescue Kes and getting the crew taken hostage however briefly. Even afterward Neelix is just dismissive about it too.

teacake wrote: View Post
I wonder what would have happened if Tuvok had really killed Neelix. Would Janeway have locked him in his quarters like Suder for the rest of the trip? Or would she have found some Vulcan explanation that allowed her to let him off the hook? It seems unlikely she would do without her oldest friend and adviser.
Being Janeway's provided excuses for her own questionable behavior throughout the series, providing one for Tuvok shouldn't be hard. The only question would be if she promotes Tuvok for it or punishes him for depriving her of the privilege or killing Neelix herself.

To Dreadnaught... this one really bends the arm of coincidence and credibility with the Cardassian superweapon in the Gamma Quadrant. I do like that Voyager is getting perceived as a threat by random civilizations that aren't even random villain stereotypes. Other than that, this really strikes me as a typical Torres fixes something that's broken episode.

As for Tom acting "crabby"? Well, you'll notice in the past few episodes, and in some upcoming ones, Tom's engaging in a lot of questionable behavior. It's part of a little subplot that's running from episode to episode. It'll come to a resolution eventually.
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Old August 31 2012, 10:18 AM   #246
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Qutluch wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

Yeah, I really don't get what Paris was doing wrong in this, beyond taking advantage of a bunch of people who just don't know better. Chakotay barely gets any screen time as is, now he's coming across as a petty mall cop.

Tuvok killing the Neelix hologram was my favorite part. Neelix is a jerk.
I like your petty mall cop comparison; dead on! Why do you think Neelix is a jerk? Isn't he just misguided? He tries very hard to make people happy...he just isn't necessarily good at it, but I think his heart is there!
I don't doubt at all he's well intentioned. I didn't say he's evil. I just said he's a jerk. Take his behavior for Tuvok over the series of Voyager. He's constantly trying to "cheer" Tuvok up despite however many times Tuvok politely asks him to go away. This is harassment and very petty to say the least. From his behavior he thinks that because someone else has a different set of values, something is wrong with them and he has to fix it.
I think he takes it personally that he isn't getting positive feedback from Tuvok like he does from the rest of the crew. Sure they rib him but Janeway makes him feel needed, Naomi actually needs him, and people show up ever day for his food. And there's Tuvok, engaging in none of the Neelix patting he either receives or derives from his interactions. So he makes this his personal challenge, to get what he wants from a Vulcan.
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Old August 31 2012, 10:39 AM   #247
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Qutluch wrote: View Post

I like your petty mall cop comparison; dead on! Why do you think Neelix is a jerk? Isn't he just misguided? He tries very hard to make people happy...he just isn't necessarily good at it, but I think his heart is there!
I don't doubt at all he's well intentioned. I didn't say he's evil. I just said he's a jerk. Take his behavior for Tuvok over the series of Voyager. He's constantly trying to "cheer" Tuvok up despite however many times Tuvok politely asks him to go away. This is harassment and very petty to say the least. From his behavior he thinks that because someone else has a different set of values, something is wrong with them and he has to fix it.
I think he takes it personally that he isn't getting positive feedback from Tuvok like he does from the rest of the crew. Sure they rib him but Janeway makes him feel needed, Naomi actually needs him, and people show up ever day for his food. And there's Tuvok, engaging in none of the Neelix patting he either receives or derives from his interactions. So he makes this his personal challenge, to get what he wants from a Vulcan.
As I said, he has to be the center of attention in everything. Tuvok doesn't give him that so he has to force himself on Mr Vulcan. One wonders if he does this to Vorik too. It's rather arrogant to assume that anyone should be doting on you personally and to harass them if they don't.

I have no doubt Neelix thrives on being lord of the menu and that everyone has to come to him personally for food. That's why he gets so antsy and childish when someone uses a replicator or complains about his cooking. So say nothing of his possesiveness if it even vaguely looks like another person might do their own cooking.

As for Naomi... let's not touch that one yet since this is a first time through Voyager thread and we're not there yet.
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Old August 31 2012, 10:54 AM   #248
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Oh yes, I forget myself. Or rather I forget the thread

I like Neelix, but he is flawed and annoying. That's what makes him a decent character.
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Old August 31 2012, 03:56 PM   #249
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
Oh yes, I forget myself. Or rather I forget the thread

I like Neelix, but he is flawed and annoying. That's what makes him a decent character.
I don't disagree with the comments on Neelix. He can be pushy and annoying; even rude. However, I too find that all of those quirks make him an interesting and decent character. Although, I still have not decided on how I feel about him addressing Tuvok as Mr. Vulcan; is it said to be condescending or polite??
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Old August 31 2012, 04:01 PM   #250
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Oh yes, I forget myself. Or rather I forget the thread

I like Neelix, but he is flawed and annoying. That's what makes him a decent character.
I don't disagree with the comments on Neelix. He can be pushy and annoying; even rude. However, I too find that all of those quirks make him an interesting and decent character. Although, I still have not decided on how I feel about him addressing Tuvok as Mr. Vulcan; is it said to be condescending or polite??
Completely agree with Neelix. But that's what you get from aliens -- their codes of behaviour can't be expected to be quite the same as ours, and I always found it refreshing (up to a point ...) to have someone there who cuts right through the social conventions and to the heart of the matter, whether people like it or not. He's one of the more consistently drawn characters, based on that premise.

As for him calling Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan", I always thought that came from Caretaker where Tuvok rather superciliously introduces himself as "I am a Vulcan". Like that is the most important thing about him (of course, it is -- not the point).
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Old August 31 2012, 04:26 PM   #251
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

[QUOTE=Alpha Flyer;6891518][QUOTE=Qutluch;6891497]
teacake wrote: View Post

As for him calling Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan", I always thought that came from Caretaker where Tuvok rather superciliously introduces himself as "I am a Vulcan". Like that is the most important thing about him (of course, it is -- not the point).

Great point! That makes sense and it is something Neelix would have picked up on! Thanks for pointing that out~!
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Old September 3 2012, 04:11 PM   #252
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I just watched Death Wish last night!! Awesome episode!! I will post my review after work today!
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Old September 3 2012, 08:10 PM   #253
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As for the Neelix - Tuvok interaction. There will be an episode in season 3 called "Rise", which addresses exactly that point. So be patient and stay tuned.
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Old September 4 2012, 03:43 PM   #254
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Death Wish

A “Q”! I am so excited! How could an opener be any better? He walks around and tells them that he wants to die. His last words, “I die not for myself, but for you”…then he tries to kill himself but ends up making all of the men disappear. Then my favorite Q appeared! The young Q (John Delance) returns all of the men! Then old Q asks Jane for asylum, and jumps them back into time at the point of the big bang (My husband says he appreciates that they didn’t say the Big Bang, so they won’t be embarrassed by conflicting theories of special expansion… whatever.). Next, we see the young Q looking into the ships camera’s showing the ship as a Christmas ornament on a tree. Oh, and I love that the young Q keeps making cracks about Janeway as a woman Captain!

Janeway decides that she will hold a trial to determine if the old Q should be given asylum, and the young Q agrees on behalf of the continuum. Either Janeway is going to help him kill himself or lock him into prison. Old Q asks Tuvok to represent him at the hearing because Vulcans approve of elderly-assisted suicide. (This is all very Jack Kevorkian-ish…my husband pointed out that euthanasia was the hot topic for mid-1990s, especially in our home state of Michigan).

The trial is awesome! I love how logical Tuvok is and how he keeps out-witting young Q. Young Q asks if he could bring men from Earth to show the most important aspects of life. I looked at my husband and started chanting “Picard”!!! I got Riker…good enough! I love the look he gave Janeway! Awesome, no Woodstock, no Riker, no electricity, and Sir Isaac Newton avoided a “murdering-prostitutes-trial” of his own if there was not a Q! I laughed so hard at this part. True, it is a little silly and absurd, but sometimes that just works!

I truly appreciate how Janeway verbally abuses Young Q with a sardonic smile on her face! Oh, and Young Q tries to tempt Janeway with a little bribe; give us our ruling to lock up Old Q, and we will send you back to Earth. Tuvok insists that Old Q get to show Janeway (his judge) the Continuum. The Continuum looks like the middle of rural Nevada. Old Q makes the point that everyone is sitting around a house, silently because they have already said everything that ever needed to be said. (I feel that young Q probably created a few conversations when he was voted out himself…) Old Q explains that they are forcing mortality on him even though he already accomplished everything that there is or was to accomplish; there is no meaning to life. (Very interesting speech given that this was during a high media time for Kevorkian).

Young Q goes to Janeway who is sleeping in a very sexy nightgown (I imagine this was a heart-stopping scene for Janeway lovers)! He offers to bring them back to Earth and to not send Old Q back into his prison…how could she refuse this? She would not be killing Q, he would not be isolated in his prison, and her mission (to get her people home) would have been accomplished. Furthermore, there’s no damage to the prime directive by destabilizing a foreign culture. Do you really think this was wise? What are your opinions? (Again, my husband warns me that discussions may give away spoilers about the fallout.) As a captain where would you draw the line with your mission and responsibilities to your people, and helping a single individual with whom you have no ties (keeping in mind that the proposed bribe would at least be more beneficial to Old Q than what he was previously imprisoned under).

After the verdict is given, Old Q joins the crew. As Janeway and Chakotay are discussing what to do with him, the doctor calls regarding a medical emergency. Young Q helps aid Old Q in his suicide; he gives him a deadly hemlock plant to ingest. As he leaves, Young Q indicates that he is going to cause a little trouble for the Continuum again! Woo-hoo!

Favorite part: This was a great episode that tackled a sticky subject at the time (and really even now). It was nice to see a real-life-application episode. We had further character development for Janeway, who sticks to her morals, despite the impact it makes on her own people. Also, Tuvok, our wonderfully logical Vulcan, makes an amazing attorney! My absolute favorite part was when Janeway told Young Q off with a perfect smile on her face

Least favorite part: The old west-Nevada scene. I feel like they could have done a better job here. Yeah, the point is to show how boring the Continuum was, but they could have done a better job with it. The old guy reading the old book vs. the young woman reading the new magazine… I kind of felt that this was badly represented… both wore old clothing and had the appearance of an age gone by…shouldn’t the “new” portray new? I know that they were trying to represent how droll the Continuum was to the mere mortals, but I think they could have done the symbolism in a different way.
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Old September 4 2012, 04:16 PM   #255
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Death Wish was an awesome episode on so many levels, and you hit the enthusasm aspect of it dead on. Quinn(Old Q but simplicity's sake he's generally called by the name he had in that brief log entry) was an interesting and compelling character in his own right and put a very different aspect on the face of the Continium. John de Lancie, as we've come to expect and love, really does shine through.

"They're just gone.... oh I'm very sorry for the inconvience." That makes me laugh every time. As for Q, well he comes across as a condencending, sexist, racist jerk but we love him because of it!

Really the worst thing about this episode was it did too good. It was so popular a sequel was demanded... and we got it... if you think the Old West is bad, wait until next time.
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