Why is Nemesis hated so much?

[Green Lantern]

Kuro Pit wrote:

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Seriously i enjoyed Nemesis. It had alot of good things in it. Though it did have some flaws (B4 for example) I thought it was a good movie, and the Best of all the TNG films.

I enjoyed it too, wouldn't say it was the best TNG film though.

[JarodRussell]

The best TNG film is still First Contact in my opinion. It was fresh, different from the usual episode formula, editing was tight, and the film was state of the art compared to other films being released at the same time. They should have kept that pace of shaking things up.

Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis are all alike. There is a prologue introducing the threat, then we have the Enterprise crew at a totally random and totally unrelated event, and then it involves Data and Picard contemplating about some human thing, and eventually Picard has to stop a doomsday device personally. In the end, these three films feel like big budget TV episodes. Ironically, the budget looks to be getting smaller with each installment even though it got higher every time.

Generations is kinda ruined by forcing Kirk into the story, and then only using him for a fist fight in the end. I wonder what the film would have been like had it just been the TNG crew vs. Soran.

[CommanderRaytas]

I was eleven when I saw Generations at the cinema, and I must say I thought it was great. Probably my lingering fondness of the film still stems from that first experience.

[lurok]

But now we're older and wiser and put away such childish thoughts

[teacake]

Generations is fabulous!!

It's Star Trek's Christmas Special.

[JarodRussell]

teacake wrote:

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Generations is fabulous!!

It's Star Trek's Christmas Special.

I wonder what your comment would have been like had it not been Christmas but some other occasion where families celebrate together.

[LOKAI of CHERON]

CommanderRaytas wrote:

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I was eleven when I saw Generations at the cinema, and I must say I thought it was great. Probably my lingering fondness of the film still stems from that first experience.

Well, I was 26 at my first viewing - and thought it was great too! I'm now 43; and, I still think it's great! Generations remains my favourite TNG movie despite the continued derision it receives here and in wider fandom.

[lurok]

teacake wrote:

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Generations is fabulous!!

It's Star Trek's Christmas Special.

But it's like someone stuck the Star Wars Holiday Special in the middle of The Phantom Menace.

[LOKAI of CHERON]

lurok wrote:

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But it's like someone stuck the Star Wars Holiday Special in the middle of The Phantom Menace.

Certainly, I understand your thinking vis-a-vis a humorous allegory between The Star Wars Christmas Special and the Nexus sequence in Generations - but honestly - other than the word Christmas the "joke" just doesn't work. I've always found the sequence to be quite compelling, and an insight into Picard's sometimes lonely life. Dennis McCarthy's woefully underappreciated score is absolutely beautiful to boot.

[Plain Simple]

JRS wrote:

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Yes..the rape scene.
The character of Troi was not treated very well in this movie.
She was there just to get married, raped..then later cried about twice, was angry..and crashed a ship.
She does not really come as an strong and independent woman, who's past experiences in the TNG series itself, should have prepared her to shrug of the mind rape stuff rather quickly
( she was possessed by aliens twice, captured by Romulans, helped Picard after the Borg incident, lost her telepathic powers, was mind raped, entered her mothers mind and so on..)

How can you possibly suggest that anyone can just "shrug off" rape? And how could "it has happened often before" possibly make it better, instead of worse?

ssosmcin wrote:

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I always liked Nemesis. I liked it on opening night and I still do. I think it's a fun flick.

Seriously? With all of the men who shave their heads, all over the world, you really still think it means "skinhead"? It's a popular stylistic choice. The character could have done it for any number of reasons.

Of course, "skinhead" is also not synonymous with "neo-Nazi".

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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Honestly I believe that Nemesis is still ripped by fans because of it's box office gross. Had Nemesis doubled or tripled it's budget, fans would be kinder to it. Money can salvation the reputation of a poorly received film.

Take the Transformers movies for example. Nearly everyone rips Michael Bay for his directing and handling of the franchise but each film has succeeded at making $700+ millions. Despite them being poorly written and critics and fans ripping the films no one hates them. If any of them bombed everyone would be on the f*ck Michael Bay bandwagon.

Are you kidding me? Do you have anything to back that up? Personally I don't "hate" any movie, that's just a ridiculous concept to me, but liking or not liking a movie has nothing at all to do with how much money it made. For the vast majority of movies I see, I don't even know (or care) how much they made. As for Transformers, I consider TF2 one of the worst movies I've seen in recent memory. Part of it (but not the only thing by far) is the disappointment that something I liked (Transformers), wasn't done justice in my opinion. A similar sentiment plays when thinking about Nemesis: it's such a sadly wasted opportunity to have a decent send off for TNG.

It's been a while since I saw the movie (I can't remember if I ever saw it for a second time, after the first viewing in the theatre; I might have seen it one more time afterwards on vhs), and most if not all I could possibly say about it, has been said by others in this thread, but what I mostly remember is that I thought it was a wasted opportunity. Wasted Romulan potential and a wasted TNG farewell opportunity.

[teacake]

LOKAI of CHERON wrote:

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Certainly, I understand your thinking vis-a-vis a humorous allegory between The Star Wars Christmas Special and the Nexus sequence in Generations - but honestly - other than the word Christmas the "joke" just doesn't work. I've always found the sequence to be quite compelling, and an insight into Picard's sometimes lonely life. Dennis McCarthy's woefully underappreciated score is absolutely beautiful to boot.

I am still over Picard's fantasy life. It works fine with what we've seen of him, but it's very interesting to me that his ideal wife is at home with the children cooking and setting nice tables for dinner.

That said yes I am joking. I actually love Generations. I didn't find the Kirk stuff forced, I loved seeing him again though I do find there is oddly not much chemistry between him and Picard. I like how we learn more about the El-Aurians and I found Soran to be a believable and interesting villain. Plus we get that great quote about time from him which is a bonus.

Generations is jam packed with stories and people unlike Insurrection which IMO is quite drab. Generations is colorful. I mean.. the DURAS sisters!? How fabulous was that?? And crashing the Enterprise? The film is a candy store of events.

[AllStarEntprise]

Plain Simple wrote:

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Are you kidding me? Do you have anything to back that up? Personally I don't "hate" any movie, that's just a ridiculous concept to me, but liking or not liking a movie has nothing at all to do with how much money it made. For the vast majority of movies I see, I don't even know (or care) how much they made. As for Transformers, I consider TF2 one of the worst movies I've seen in recent memory. Part of it (but not the only thing by far) is the disappointment that something I liked (Transformers), wasn't done justice in my opinion. A similar sentiment plays when thinking about Nemesis: it's such a sadly wasted opportunity to have a decent send off for TNG.

It's been a while since I saw the movie (I can't remember if I ever saw it for a second time, after the first viewing in the theatre; I might have seen it one more time afterwards on vhs), and most if not all I could possibly say about it, has been said by others in this thread, but what I mostly remember is that I thought it was a wasted opportunity. Wasted Romulan potential and a wasted TNG farewell opportunity.

It's my opinion. IMO fans are harder on NEM because of it's box office gross. The Transformers analogy was there to show that a movie can be garbage, with it's characters, execution, story and plot but still be considered as success because of it's box office performance. Don't believe me, look at the Twilight films. No one would consider these films good in any measurable sense. The dialogue is atrocious, the acting wooden, the screenplays are a mess, the execution is bad. DESPITE all that each film has gone one to make hundreds of millions at the BO. The last 3 films making $700 million a piece, and the upcoming one projected to do about the same or more.

My point was that even if people hate a film for the mistakes they think it makes, BO performance is the silver lining that can save it's reputation. At the end of the day that's all studios care about. Can the make money off it?

What I said was that even if fans didn't like NEM it wouldn't receive the bashing it does if it had doubled or tripled it's budget. Nothing succeeds like success and had NEM been a financial success it would not be perceived as the train wreck most claim it is.

[teacake]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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What I said was that even if fans didn't like NEM it wouldn't receive the bashing it does if it had doubled or tripled it's budget. Nothing succeeds like success and had NEM been a financial success it would not be perceived as the train wreck most claim it is.

pfft.. I'm oblivious to the box office. NEM was average. Very, very average.

[Plain Simple]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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It's my opinion. IMO fans are harder on NEM because of it's box office gross. The Transformers analogy was there to show that a movie can be garbage, with it's characters, execution, story and plot but still be considered as success because of it's box office performance.

The question is: considered a success by whom? By the studios? Sure. After all they're in the business of making money. But by the fans? I can't claim there are no fans out there who care about the box office numbers, but I doubt most fans even know these numbers, let alone let them play an important role in their appraisal of the movie. At most, they use them to show that other people share their opinion about the movie (as in "I didn't like the movie and looking at how little it made no one else did either"), but I don't think I've ever heard a fan claim "I don't like this movie, because it made no money for the studio". Of course, I have no data to back this up, it's only anecdotal, so I asked if you have anything more than your opinion.

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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Don't believe me, look at the Twilight films.

Do I have to? I have successfully avoided that up until now.

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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No one would consider these films good in any measurable sense. The dialogue is atrocious, the acting wooden, the screenplays are a mess, the execution is bad. DESPITE all that each film has gone one to make hundreds of millions at the BO. The last 3 films making $700 million a piece, and the upcoming one projected to do about the same or more.

Okay, I think I might be getting what you're after here (or perhaps not, correct me if I'm wrong). Are you saying that many people will just go see a movie because it's popular, even if it is panned by the critics? I believe that. Peer pressure, herd behavior, etc. And as a result the movie makes a lot of money. But is making a lot of money the cause of people going to see it?

Do you think that, if the next Twilight movie does not deliver on whatever it is that Twilight fans expect from their movies, it will not be criticized by the fans because it has made/will made a lot of money? Note, I say criticized by the fans. To be a fan, you must already like most of what came before. I'm not talking about people who never liked Twilight to begin with. But let's say the movie deviates considerably from the book and kills of a popular character or something. Why would the box office numbers have any impact on how fans react to that?

I'm suddenly reminded of Sherlock Holmes (the original books). If I remember the story correctly, the books were very popular, but Doyle got tired of writing them, so he killed off Holmes. Fans got angry enough, despite the series being popular, that he continued writing and brought Holmes back.

Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but showing that fans can still criticize decisions of a franchise, even when it's making money.

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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My point was that even if people hate a film for the mistakes they think it makes, BO performance is the silver lining that can save it's reputation.

BO stinks.

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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At the end of the day that's all studios care about. Can the make money off it?

What I said was that even if fans didn't like NEM it wouldn't receive the bashing it does if it had doubled or tripled it's budget. Nothing succeeds like success and had NEM been a financial success it would not be perceived as the train wreck most claim it is.

Perhaps, but I doubt it. To use your example, people still criticize the Transformers movies, despite the money they made. If you see a difference between criticizing NEM and criticizing TF (besides arbitrarily calling one "bashing" and the other "criticizing"), then please explain.

[CommanderRaytas]

LOKAI of CHERON wrote:

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Well, I was 26 at my first viewing - and thought it was great too! I'm now 43; and, I still think it's great! Generations remains my favourite TNG movie despite the continued derision it receives here and in wider fandom.

Oh, I wasn't claiming that only kids can like it....only that my own perspective is warped, since I was still a child at that time. I have no idea how well I would like it, should I watch it for the first time now, at 29.

And the Christmas bit was one of my favourites!