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Old August 15 2012, 05:05 PM   #226
Qutluch
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

[QUOTE=BirdInJetstream;6806015]
Qutluch wrote: View Post
Alliances

I liked that story a lot. It summed up a couple of profound issues: Is it wise to forge alliances with less developed (even aggressive) species? If so - how much are you willing to offer in return for ressources, protection and information? Where is the line of the Prime directive, since any alliance is prone to have an impact on the constellation of power in the sector? When becomes the own survival and the possibility to find a way back home more important than the prime directive? How far can you go to make compromises with half of the crew being not even federation members?
These are great questions. I wonder about the Prime Directive and its validity in their situation often; your question on when it becomes more important for them to get home than follow the Prime Directive specifically. I didn't dislike the episode, I just wish Janeway would have been more vocal when it came to working with Seska. I felt that even if she did cave in and contact her she should have at least vocalized her distrust and apprehension more vehnemently.
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Old August 15 2012, 05:12 PM   #227
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

[QUOTE=Qutluch;6806183]
BirdInJetstream wrote: View Post
Qutluch wrote: View Post
Alliances

I liked that story a lot. It summed up a couple of profound issues: Is it wise to forge alliances with less developed (even aggressive) species? If so - how much are you willing to offer in return for ressources, protection and information? Where is the line of the Prime directive, since any alliance is prone to have an impact on the constellation of power in the sector? When becomes the own survival and the possibility to find a way back home more important than the prime directive? How far can you go to make compromises with half of the crew being not even federation members?
These are great questions. I wonder about the Prime Directive and its validity in their situation often; your question on when it becomes more important for them to get home than follow the Prime Directive specifically. I didn't dislike the episode, I just wish Janeway would have been more vocal when it came to working with Seska. I felt that even if she did cave in and contact her she should have at least vocalized her distrust and apprehension more vehnemently.
I thought that she made her dislike and contempt of Culluh and Seska quite transparient, and was obviously just going through the motions looking for an excuse to end the talks. An excuse that Culluh quickly provided.
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Old August 15 2012, 05:37 PM   #228
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I agree with those who said that Janeway was essentially covering her strategic bases -- as advocated by Chakotay and Tuvok -- with the alliance attempt, and that she was just as happy when she didn't have to go through with it. "Alliances" provides good atmospherics and background for future Kazon/Seska related episodes; I always saw it as a bit of a transition piece, with the side benefit of showing that in the Delta Quadrant you can't trust anyone, not even the apparently kind-hearted and downtrodden.
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Old August 15 2012, 06:01 PM   #229
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Alpha Flyer wrote: View Post
I agree with those who said that Janeway was essentially covering her strategic bases -- as advocated by Chakotay and Tuvok -- with the alliance attempt, and that she was just as happy when she didn't have to go through with it. "Alliances" provides good atmospherics and background for future Kazon/Seska related episodes; I always saw it as a bit of a transition piece, with the side benefit of showing that in the Delta Quadrant you can't trust anyone, not even the apparently kind-hearted and downtrodden.
Well it there's any morals to this episode, Scorpion and Janeway both laugh at them.
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Old August 28 2012, 04:50 PM   #230
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Threshold
WOW! It took me a couple of sit-downs to finish this episode. It is clearly the worst Star Trek episode I could ever imagine! Recap: Paris breaks Warp 10, Paris comes back, begins to evolve into a new species, dies, comes back to life, escapes, steals the Captain (we assume), brings her to a new planet, they both evolve into Salamanders, have babies, create a new race, leave the babies behind, and then pretend that nothing ever happened; particularly that the Captain and Paris mated!! I am positive that they will never refer to this in any future episodes either; not that Paris might be a little shaken up or feel the need to talk to someone, and I am sure that there won’t be any weird feelings between Janeway and Paris….

You can really stop reading here, but I am going to include my recap just so I remember how awful this episode was!!

In the opening I kept expecting Paris to suddenly explode. I don’t mind watching Paris fail; it amuses me. At this point I didn’t mind the technobabble about Warp 10, but my interest didn’t last long! Apparently, Warp 10 is theoretically impossible, but achieving warp 10 would allow a person to be in every point in the universe, simultaneously; thereby fixing Voyager’s problem.

After failing, B’Elanna, Kim, and Paris go sulk in the mess hall. After one of Neelix’s wonderfully-accidental pep talks the trio has a sudden idea and BAM they figured out how to successfully achieve Warp 10….Hhhmmm…at this point I begin to wonder what the hell is going to go wrong. At a senior meeting Janeway tells Paris that he has the opportunity to join such great names as Orville Wright, Neil Armstrong, and Zefram Cochrane….yeah…like he needed his ego fed. (On a complete side note, I think they changed Janeway’s lipstick color and I like it much better).

Paris does a test run and achieves Warp 10 and when he was reporting back there was an interruption in the com system and Voyager lost contact with Paris. Paris comes back with a whole bunch of data from his trip…to everywhere?? (At this point I decided to quit trying to understand the physics of Warp 10…blah, blah, technobabble…) Next up, Paris can no longer breathe oxygen and he appears to be allergic to water?? He dies, comes back to life with two hearts and a “new” body and then he is a bigger asshole then before….Then he disappears off of the ship with Janeway and when Chakotay finds him they are lizards? Huh? They mated and had babies that they just left behind? What? I am pretty sure creating a new race is against the Prime Directive….

Favorite part: Neelix’s accidental speech and Paris randomly shouting, “Pepperoni”!

Least favorite part: The whole episode. This is definitely the worst Star Trek episode I have seen thus far.
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Old August 28 2012, 05:27 PM   #231
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
Threshold
WOW! It took me a couple of sit-downs to finish this episode. It is clearly the worst Star Trek episode I could ever imagine! Recap: Paris breaks Warp 10, Paris comes back, begins to evolve into a new species, dies, comes back to life, escapes, steals the Captain (we assume), brings her to a new planet, they both evolve into Salamanders, have babies, create a new race, leave the babies behind, and then pretend that nothing ever happened; particularly that the Captain and Paris mated!! I am positive that they will never refer to this in any future episodes either; not that Paris might be a little shaken up or feel the need to talk to someone, and I am sure that there won’t be any weird feelings between Janeway and Paris….

<snip>
Least favorite part: The whole episode. This is definitely the worst Star Trek episode I have seen thus far.
Yup, this one is well hated.

This episode was actually why I pointed out how interesting it was that Janeway's Spirit Guide turned out to be a Lizard and how I never caught that when I watched the Series in First Run, but, I didn't want to point that out at the time, because I didn't want to ruin your "enjoyment" of this episode.

In other episodes you may find plot points or moral dilemmas or Decisions to set your teeth on edge, but, I think this episode is as bad as the Franchise ever gets (Well, The Enterprise Series Finale, that was supposedly "A Valentine to the Fans" ranks right down with this episode too, but, I think you'll find little else in the Entire Franchise this bad)
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Old August 28 2012, 06:00 PM   #232
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Ah Threshold... I mean this episode makes Season 1 of Enterprise look like quality sci-fi entertainment.
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Old August 28 2012, 06:10 PM   #233
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It took me a week and a half to actually sit down and finish the darn thing! I was at a loss for words after watching this episode. I looked at my husband (who has watched everything Star Trek already) and just shook my head and kept saying, "REALLY??"
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Old August 28 2012, 06:13 PM   #234
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
It took me a week and a half to actually sit down and finish the darn thing! I was at a loss for words after watching this episode. I looked at my husband (who has watched everything Star Trek already) and just shook my head and kept saying, "REALLY??"
Making fun of this episode has become an art form over the years. I'm a proponent of all the nepotism Janeway shows Paris in future episodes is because he rocked her world in this one.
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Old August 28 2012, 11:53 PM   #235
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Qutluch wrote: View Post
It took me a week and a half to actually sit down and finish the darn thing! I was at a loss for words after watching this episode. I looked at my husband (who has watched everything Star Trek already) and just shook my head and kept saying, "REALLY??"
Making fun of this episode has become an art form over the years. I'm a proponent of all the nepotism Janeway shows Paris in future episodes is because he rocked her world in this one.
Threshold. Yeah - it has that rep, much of it well deserved. I'll take a contrary position here though: it's actually got some pretty good stuff in it. Am I nuts? Maybe - but hear me out.

Admittedly, the whole metamorphosis/abduction/kizzards thing sucked. No doubt, no argument. It SUCKED ROYALLY. Robbie McNeill and Kate Mulgrew have both said the same thing - the episode was ruined in the last 15 minutes.

BUT. There is some pretty good character stuff for Tom Paris in it, if you can be bothered to look. That big Paris ego Qutluch mentions? Look closely - the episode exposes it quite nicely as a wall built of insecurity and unrealistic outside expectations. (Look at this ep in conjunction with Parturition, too.) Obviously the writers didn't need the slug-transformation to make that point, but it doesn't hurt to see past that aberration for a bit.

Also, the redemption speech at the end of the episode - trying not to spoil here - leads up nicely to Investigations. (I've got a story in the works that draws the connections; one of these days I'll finish it.)

And the Janeway favoritism R. Star mentions? I honestly don't see a lot of evidence of that; still don't after several go-arounds of all VOY episodes. So Janeway likes Paris. She adores Tuvok, Seven, Kes and the Doc too, and Chakotay when he doesn't contradict her. So what? But think of the evident wish KJ has to try and help TP reclaim his almost-blown life, and seen in that context what opportunities she does give him make a heck of a lot of sense. I've been a manager of people for some time now, and I spend a disproportionate amount of time on those that have a great deal of promise but need a bit of a boost to realize it. It's called good management and leadership.

Ultimately, it's all a question of nuancing - it's easy to lose what subtleties there are to be found in a given episode when the writers fail as spectacularly as they did with the lizard diversion at the end. Exorcise that, and Threshold is a not-bad character piece.

Think I'm completely off my rocker? Read Jim Wright's review of the piece on reviewboy.com. At least I know I'm not alone!

Cheers,

AF
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Old August 29 2012, 12:28 AM   #236
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
He dies, comes back to life with two hearts and a “new” body

Tom Paris turns into a Time Lord?!?!
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Old August 29 2012, 01:33 AM   #237
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
That's her fiance she is chatting with. Her fiance and pregnant dog who are now 70 years away from her.

And get used to the hands on hips, it's a trademark

Made by one of our forum members (don't worry there are no spoilers):
Of course!!!! She's the first Star Fleet captain with nice hips.
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Old August 31 2012, 02:33 AM   #238
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Meld
Paris’ pool hall…I like this holodeck scene, but in general, I feel like the actors should always be “dressed to the set” in holodeck scenes. It is an easy way to show us a different look/side/feel to the characters. Meanwhile, in the mess hall Neelix sits with Tuvok to talk about Vulcan holidays, and swears that he will not rest until he gets Tuvok to smile… I do love the interactions with Neelix and Tuvok. Although, I have not decided if I feel like it is touching that Neelix calls Tuvok Mr. Vulcan or if it is unintentionally degrading…Oh, and just before the opener ends there is a random dead guy. Not a bad opening, Paris gets to gamble, Neelix gets to give one of his spunky “pep” talks to a fixed Tuvok, and there is a mystery surrounding a burned body.
After the opening we find that Crewman Darwin (aptly named) was murdered. (Speaking of the Doctor, I don’t feel like Kes has had enough airtime lately). Tuvok begins to investigate the murder. He questions Crewman Sudor, and later Sudor’s DNA was matched with the crime scene. After admitting to the crime Sudor’s only offering for motive was that he did not like the way Crewman Darwin looked at him. After this comment, Tuvok actually looked puzzled! He could not understand the logic of the crime. In my own macabre way I kind of hoped Sudor killed him just to to drive Tuvok nuts! Tuvok wants to mind meld with Sudor in order to fully understand the crime.
They jump to the holodeck scene where Paris is basically running his own odds room! Every day they gamble on a set of numbers and if no one hits only the house wins!! What an Entrepreneur!
Tuvok explains the effects of the meld to Janeway, but I wish that they showed the mind meld, clips of memory, etc. Tuvok tells Janeway that he wants to execute Sudor because Sudor is prepared for that, but Janeway put her foot down and insisted that they put maximum security around his quarters instead.
Why did Chakotay put a stop to Paris’ gambling? Who cares if people want to put up one of their rations? It is an outlet for them, something fun and maybe even a little thrilling for them for a couple of minutes each day. Yeah, Paris is racking in the extra rations, but he was the entrepreneur of the enterprise!

Tuvok is unquestionably affected by the mind meld and excuses himself of duty. When Janeway enters his room to check on him he was counting the numerous ways he knew how to kill a person. He is acting like a cornered dog ready to pounce, and Janeway is trying to coax him into seeing the doctor…why not beam him to a shielded area in sickbay rather than risking Tuvok’s and Janeway’s safety?
I do love the speech Tuvok gives the Captain when he is crazed! We even get to see him smile when he tells Janeway to reduce the force field so he can kill Sudor! Tuvok yelled!!! What a great episode for Tim Russ to break from his character and get to act a little crazy. I do like episodes where the characters undergo some changes, etc. that allow for them to act differently than their regular character!
Favorite part: When Neelix sticks his finger into Tuvok’s mouth and pulls his lip back to try and make him smile…even though it was a holodeck scene that ended with Tuvok killing Neelix it made me smile!! I really enjoyed this episode. It flowed well and Russ did a remarkable acting job.
Least favorite part: That Paris’ gambling gambit was closed down!
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Old August 31 2012, 02:46 AM   #239
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Meld... Yeah just what was Tuvok thinking during this one? I'm going to join minds with a murderous pyschopath to figure out why he's driven into a homocidal rage over not liking a look. Wow, that didn't end well? Who could have seen that one coming?

I do like how Tuvok contempteously mocks Janeway's lack of punishing Suder. I mean telling a murderer the equivilent of "go to your room" is a bit... lacking. Janeway's speechifing against capital punishment will of course come back to mock her in future episodes too. Suder will be back too... I'm sure that will end well.

Yeah, I really don't get what Paris was doing wrong in this, beyond taking advantage of a bunch of people who just don't know better. Chakotay barely gets any screen time as is, now he's coming across as a petty mall cop.

Tuvok killing the Neelix hologram was my favorite part. Neelix is a jerk.
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Old August 31 2012, 02:50 AM   #240
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Let us all watch it again.

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