Just finished KotOR for the first time...

[Hound of UIster]

Reverend wrote:

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But yeah, that whole bit about being a "wound in the force" and leaching off everyone else didn't make any sense to me at all. It always seemed to me that Kreia was the one leaching off of the PC from the get go. I mean it was hardly shocking when she turned up and fried all the masters.

It actually made more sense to me once Chris Avellone said that

Darth Nihilus was the darker and missing piece of the Exile that had emerged from Malachor V

[Reverend]

Don't know if anyone noticed but KOTOR2 has finally been released on Steam! As a bonus, it looks like the restored content mod got a huge update just this last month and as a double bonus, someone has made a "Handmaiden for female exile" mod that's actually compatible with restored content. I feel a new game coming on...

[PsychoPere]

Yeah, I saw the Steam news from none other than Chris Avellone on Twitter.

As for the TSLRCM, that's not only a "huge" update - but their last planned update in general. One of the fan developers was interviewed by PC Gamer.

Work on the droid planet M4-78EP still continues, but since very little of that work constitutes restoration (this is addressed in the interview) it's being done separately from TSLRCM.

[Reverend]

OK, looks like the 1.8 update fixed that game breaking bug that stopped me from progressing, so I've now been able to complete KOTOR 2...I can see why people were disappointed, especially if the version I saw was in some way improved by TSLRCM. I mean it wasn't *awful* but it was certainly anticlimactic.

[Dream]

Reverend wrote:

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OK, looks like the 1.8 update fixed that game breaking bug that stopped me from progressing, so I've now been able to complete KOTOR 2...I can see why people were disappointed, especially if the version I saw was in some way improved by TSLRCM. I mean it wasn't *awful* but it was certainly anticlimactic.

The way I see it, the first KOTOR had the much better storyline.

But the sequel had the better gameplay.

I'm a story over gameplay RPG kind of guy. I tend to drop a game pretty fast if I don't care what is happening in it, so I liked the first KOTOR more.

[Reverend]

^I'm not so sure about that. I mean the Revan twist was clever (even though I had been spoiled on it long ago) but other than that it was a fairly standard fantasy quest type story. KOTOR II on the other hand looked like a deliberate deconstruction of the standard Star Wars good vs. evil tropes. It's just a shame the game was so rushed and that they never got to finish the story with the obviously intended third game.

But yes, the gameplay in KOTOR 2 was much improved.

[Skywalker]

The first game was a better Star Wars story, IMO. I liked the second game, but I didn't like its ambiguous, shades-of-gray nature. Star Wars is supposed to be a black-and-white, good vs. evil world.

[Reverend]

^But that's rather the point. The game (or rather Kreia) asks is black-and-white morality a tenable world view? Can any decision be that simple? They even exemplify this almost as soon as you land on Nar Shaddaa: after seeing you help out some homeless guy, a beggar approaches you and asks for a meagre hand out. If you refuse him, he may go hungry, but if you do the compassionate thing, some other street dweller sees what you give him and as soon as he rounds the corner the bloke you helped is soon beaten up and mugged.

It also looks at the role of Jedi and Sith. Where the Sith are perpetually locked in a cycle of betrayal and self destruction, the Jedi are committed to coddling weakness, in those they profane to protect and even in themselves by relying so totally on the force.

[Skywalker]

I know what the game was trying to say, I just don't like it.

[Reverend]

^Fair enough. I just happened to find it more interesting. I mean since when does any other Star Wars story require you to actually think? To me, it was refreshing.

[CaptainStoner]

Reverend wrote:

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Yes I know, what took me so long? Well sue me. I've had this game for years, installed and uninstalled it three or four times and restarted from scratch at least twice, but today I've finally completed it for the first time!

On my first try I never even made it off Taris before I got bored with it. Second time I made it as far as Dantooine before the tedium became too much. The third time I pushed on, made it to Tatooine and fell in love with the game. So after a *very* slow and rocky start, I thoroughly enjoyed what felt like walking around in a Ralph McQuarrie painting. Kashyyyk was a bit of a let down but it was OK. Then I got to Manaan and suddenly the tedium came back with a vengeance. I left it alone for quite a while after that until a free weekend on SWTOR last month gave me an itch to give it another go.

Luckily I still had my old save files so I loaded up Manaan...fast travelled right back to the Ebon Hawk and went straight to Korriban...Obviously I did eventually finish Manaan, but I didn't want to start off there.

Anyway, now that I've finished it, I have to say I'm at a bit of a loss as to why people sing this game's praises so much...

*ducks*

Don't get me wrong it's easily one of the best Star Wars games ever and a *good* game in it's own right...BUT it didn't really grip me. To be fair, the big twist regarding the player character's true identity was spoiled for me a long time ago. I did try to avoid spoilers, but it's an older game and people are understandable careless. I'm betting that was a major part of the appeal and unfortunately I can only imagine how much of a shock that would have been on a blind playthrough.

Still, plot aside I had a really hard time with gameplay.Though I'm more tolerant of thins kind of game than I used to be, I can never feel invested in combat is if all I'm doing is queuing up dice rolls to see if a Jedi can manage to miss a creature the size of a bull that's standing right in front of them. I mean, come on! I can put up with a lot, but if the combat system is rubbish and combat makes up about 90% of the game them to me, that's a deal breaker. Hell, DA2's combat system was probably the only thing that kept be going through that aimless slog of a plot!

Character interaction felt a bit spotty too, which surprised me since I'm often told that's what Bioware has been renowned for since the 'Baulder's Gate' RPGs. Here, while most of your teammates have fairly good introductions, as soon as they get aboard your ship, they just scuttle away to their little corner and refuse to say anything new for half the game. Because of this I found it hard to develop an attachment to them. Though you do get some of their history, none of them really have an arc and rarely do they contribute.

So how did everyone else fell about the first time they played KotOR? Am I alone in my dissatisfaction? Is there something I've overlooked?

...Is the sequel worth bothering with?

I see the thread is nearly dead, but felt like commenting.
KotOR uses Dungeons and Dragons as its underlying combat mechanic, which is by definition an abstraction of a full round of fighting. So marrying that - a pen/paper RPG system published in 1974 - to an almost-modern 3d computer game is what results in that dissonance.
In the Baldur's Gate games - computerized D&D - it made more sense, those not being 3D and not really representing individual blows as much.
I too found KotOR quite grinding in places, though not to the extent you did. KotOR 2 is a more nuanced story, though generally regarded as inferior to the first.
And actually, the dialog aspects of Bioware games are one of the more critcized, not so much lauded, aspects, the main criticism being given 5 or 6 choices with 1 or 2 different outcomes. I still enjoy the selections and "roleplaying" the character(s), but often any selection results in combat.
Lastly, Baldur's Gate, and especially BG2, are in my opinion vastly better than KotOR 1 or 2.

[6079SmithW]

Reverend wrote:

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^But that's rather the point. The game (or rather Kreia) asks is black-and-white morality a tenable world view? Can any decision be that simple? They even exemplify this almost as soon as you land on Nar Shaddaa: after seeing you help out some homeless guy, a beggar approaches you and asks for a meagre hand out. If you refuse him, he may go hungry, but if you do the compassionate thing, some other street dweller sees what you give him and as soon as he rounds the corner the bloke you helped is soon beaten up and mugged.

It also looks at the role of Jedi and Sith. Where the Sith are perpetually locked in a cycle of betrayal and self destruction, the Jedi are committed to coddling weakness, in those they profane to protect and even in themselves by relying so totally on the force.

I agree that KOTOR 2 examining the middle ground of the Star Wars Light side/Dark side conflict was an intriguing plot and refreshing as well. I actually like this plot better than KOTOR's due to its ambiguous nature. Kreia is a great foil in my opinion. She challenges both your light and dark moral decisions.

Although it technically isn't canon I think KOTOR 2, as well as KOTOR to an extent, are a good explanation as to why the Jedi are seemingly so stupid in the prequels. They have a narrow view of the Force and morality, which even Palpatine hints at. Of course Palpatine then goes on to prove Kreia's point by losing everything he's built by being overly arrogant.

[Saturn0660]

Its funny that this thread is back up top. We were talking at work about how great game that let you go ""good" and "bad"" are. most of my friends say i'd do things so evil that even the Emperor himself would raise an eyebrow.

[Reverend]

CaptainStoner wrote:

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I see the thread is nearly dead, but felt like commenting.
KotOR uses Dungeons and Dragons as its underlying combat mechanic, which is by definition an abstraction of a full round of fighting. So marrying that - a pen/paper RPG system published in 1974 - to an almost-modern 3d computer game is what results in that dissonance.
In the Baldur's Gate games - computerized D&D - it made more sense, those not being 3D and not really representing individual blows as much.

I don't think it was the graphics being 2D or 3D so much as it was where the "camera" was placed. In games like Baldur's Gate & Fallout the isometric view gives one a more detached feel that is well suited to the more strategic turn-based gameplay. In KotOR the over-the-head 3rd person perspective is meant to make the player identify more with their avatar and make them feel like they're in the midst of the action. So when shot at someone not more than three paces away, it rubs against the grain.

I too found KotOR quite grinding in places, though not to the extent you did. KotOR 2 is a more nuanced story, though generally regarded as inferior to the first.
And actually, the dialog aspects of Bioware games are one of the more critcized, not so much lauded, aspects, the main criticism being given 5 or 6 choices with 1 or 2 different outcomes. I still enjoy the selections and "roleplaying" the character(s), but often any selection results in combat.

In case you didn't read the rest of the thread; I have actually since played KotOR 2 and have to say that while I certainly enjoyed it more, it is inferior to KotOR...on a technicality. That being of course that KotOR 2 was so blatantly unfinished (even with the RC mod.) Had the game not been so quickly rushed out the door it could have easily have surpassed the original on all fronts. A genuine shame.

Lastly, Baldur's Gate, and especially BG2, are in my opinion vastly better than KotOR 1 or 2.

One of these days I really ought to try out BG2. It's so often cited as the standard to which most modern RPGs are held. The trouble is, I've had a look at a few LPs on youtube and I'm not sure I'll be able to enjoy the combat system...

[CorporalClegg]

6079SmithW wrote:

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Although it technically isn't canon I think KOTOR 2, as well as KOTOR to an extent, are a good explanation as to why the Jedi are seemingly so stupid in the prequels.

How is it not canon?

SWEU =/= Star Trek lit.