RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,602
Posts: 5,424,957
Members: 24,805
Currently online: 444
Newest member: David Ellerman

TrekToday headlines

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 28 2012, 06:04 AM   #31
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

R. Star wrote: View Post
... and the plot summary is "white woman kidnapped on planet full of black people!"
If that was the plot summary, it would have been misleading. Yar was kidnapped not because she was white, but rather because she had just put on a brief (and not very impressive) martial arts demonstration, and Lutan thought manipulating Yar into killing his wife would secede, where his previous attempts to kill her using others had failed.

Yar's "white'ness" had nothing to do with her selection.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 06:29 AM   #32
Romulus Prime
Lieutenant Commander
 
Romulus Prime's Avatar
 
Location: The broken state of California
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
No, it is just a show, and like anything else, is made more than this by personal opinion. Now, I love most of Star Trek and I'll argue points and circumstances against opinions I oppose, but at the end of the day, I don't lose track of the fact it's anything more than a form of entertainment.

And yes, people do want to be victims when it's comfortable. I see it all the time AND have been on the receiving end when people assumed I was one ethnicity and not another simply based on my outward appearance.

IMO, the episode isn't racist one bit, and if anyone is trying to convince me otherwise, it's because they want justification for their feelings. But hey, I guess Star Trek is racist towards whites for casting mostly white people to play Cardassians - some of the most heartless and ruthless villains in Trek history. Same with Romulans and Borg too, right?

Sorry, but this is much ado about nothing, and perpetuating this myth about the Ligonians - an alien race I always thought were cool - is just another example of how to water down the meaning of the terms "racist" and "racism."

Now, it's not racist towards whites, because they are portrayed in a vast variety. So for all the negative races you mentioned, there were also noble and neutral races equally represented. In Trek, they never really showed a human (or human like)_ race being portrayed by mostly non-whites.
So I should feel the episode is being racist, correct? I mean, if I'm telling you I've never gotten this impression, nor feel that it influences my feeling one way or another regarding Black people, then what's the problem here?

It's kinda like the debate about the Oscars...whites get Oscars for all kinds of roles...but for African Americans, the major Oscars they've won has been only messed up people or maids...not generals or presidents or anything on that end of the spectrum.
Oh please, this reminds me of when Samuel L. Jackson's wife was having a shit-fit over the fact her husband wasn't in the center of a magazine covershot, despite the fact he was sharing the page with some of the greatest actors in history. Look up Morgan Freeman - 7 Academy Award nominations + winning a Golden Globe and Screen Actors Guild award, then you have:

Denzel Washington who won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in Glory.

Sidney Poitier's Academy Award for Best Actor in Lilies of the Field.

Louis Gossett, Jr. who won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in An Officer and a Gentleman

Whoopie Goldberg who won theAcademy Award for Best Supporting Actress in Ghost

Cuba Gooding, Jr. who won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in Jerry Maguire

Jennifer Hudson who won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress in Dreamgirls

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
...for African Americans, the major Oscars they've won has been only messed up people or maids...
Wow, ok guy.

__________________
Centurion: "...power is danger."

Romulan Commander: "Danger and I are old companions." - TOS episode Balance of Terror


"Living in your dreams is like living in exile.
" - Calyx, A Stitch in Time


"Shame on you, Barack Obama!" -
Hillary Clinton

"It's the economy, stupid." - Bill Clinton
Romulus Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 07:00 AM   #33
Romulus Prime
Lieutenant Commander
 
Romulus Prime's Avatar
 
Location: The broken state of California
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
No, it is just a show, and like anything else, is made more than this by personal opinion. Now, I love most of Star Trek and I'll argue points and circumstances against opinions I oppose, but at the end of the day, I don't lose track of the fact it's anything more than a form of entertainment.
The pioneering that happened in Star Trek is more than just personal opinion; it is fact. I can list some of those facts if you’d like. You’re right that it is a form of entertainment, but it is also a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
A form of entertainment becomes more than what it is based on personal opinion. People can share the same or similar opinions which is why we're on this site full of Trekkies. But at the end of the day, Star Trek is a form of entertainment. What it does to people is a byproduct of being a form of entertainment. The accomplishments as a result of Star Trek are non-sequitor to the conversation - Ligonians are aliens on a TV show. They look like humans. The ones we see have a dark skin tone. They have a concept of honor which is different than what a "Western Euro" mindset may have, but then so do other aliens like Klingons and Romulans.

Go figure.

No one is trying to convince you of anything. You had one reaction and opinion of the episode, and other people, including myself, had another. You would be making a good point with the Cardassians, the Romulans, and the Borg if most of the best races and heros in Trek history weren’t also cast using white actors. The trick of trying to create a “made up” issue by only specifying only half of it is always interesting to me.
What "best races?" You mean the Middle Eastern looking Vulcans? The tanned or dark-skinned Klingons?

And Heroes like my favorite Captain, Ben Sisko? My 2nd favorite Vulcan, Tuvok? Are you purposely discounting Geordi and Uhura? Hell, what about Nu-Uhura who's bumped McCoy down to #4 in importance? And heaven forbid a black actor or actress gets cast as a cool bad guy like Commander Sirol or Legate Broca - they might get the Wesley Snipes treatment for being cast as Simon Phoenix.

IMO, the episode had racially insensitive themes, and if anyone is trying to convince me otherwise, it’s because they want justifications for their feelings. I just felt like maybe I could give a little of the disregarding of anyone that had a different reaction back to you.
This could be 100% valid if not for the fact the Ligonians are an alien race with different customs and totally not real. BTW - we are only privy to a small example of these people from one location on their planet. Who says they're all black? The people who assume every Ligonian is, it would seem...



“Myth,” and “much ado about nothing” are also opinions of yours based off of your experience. The fact that you actually think that they were “cool” says enough to me.
Oh, I did. I liked how Hagon and Yareena not only found a way to get together and basically turned the tables on Lutan, who was obviously corrupt with power - an aspect of having authority and leadership which can happen to just about everyone in real life or in Star Trek no matter what race/species/ethnicity they are.

But yeah, by all means, feel free to explain further why my opinion "says enough" to you...


When anyone can take the offense that a number of people had to the same thing for the same reasons and waive it off as “watering down” racism and what’s racist, that is very sad to me because it says they are not very open to how other people experience things.
OR it's just like what I said.


And it’s when we are not open to how other people experience the world that things like “sexism,” “racism,” “homophobia,” etc. have the greatest likelihood of carrying on.
OR it get's perpetuated by people being comfortable as the victim, OR by others who want to have power over people who feel like the victim. May I suggest listening to Larry Elder...


__________________
Centurion: "...power is danger."

Romulan Commander: "Danger and I are old companions." - TOS episode Balance of Terror


"Living in your dreams is like living in exile.
" - Calyx, A Stitch in Time


"Shame on you, Barack Obama!" -
Hillary Clinton

"It's the economy, stupid." - Bill Clinton

Last edited by Romulus Prime; August 28 2012 at 07:19 AM.
Romulus Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 07:04 AM   #34
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

For the black people and Oscars thing, I think the key word in the point that was being made was “major.” Major roles are not supporting roles.

Best Actor – Forrest Whittaker in Last King of Scotland (see below)


Best Actor – Denzel Washington in Training Day (worst character I think he played up to that point)


Best Actress – Halle Berry in Monster’s Ball (horrible, abusive, and dysfunctional mother)


The only exception I can think of is Jaime Foxx as Ray Charles in Ray. I don’t hold Forrest’s role against him because I don’t think that’s fair when you’re playing a real person, but the guy was an evil tyrant and completely nuts. Mr. Charles had some messed up periods in his life because of drug use and infidelity, but overall, he seemed like a decent person.



@Romulus Prime
I'll be back to answer later. -- Oh wait, I'd better do this now since it looks like you have a statement of mine in your post as if it is your own. I'm going to guess this was an innocent mistake on your part, but fixing the quote in my own post is the only recourse I have at the moment. I like accuracy in posting.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 07:25 AM   #35
Romulus Prime
Lieutenant Commander
 
Romulus Prime's Avatar
 
Location: The broken state of California
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
For the black people and Oscars thing, I think the key word in the point that was being made was “major.” Major roles are not supporting roles.
Well, I think perhaps I understand your viewpoint in this regard - supporting characters apparently do not have enough significance with regards to moving a story forward, therefore the awards are insignificant.

Like I suggested, give Larry Elder a try. G'day to you...
__________________
Centurion: "...power is danger."

Romulan Commander: "Danger and I are old companions." - TOS episode Balance of Terror


"Living in your dreams is like living in exile.
" - Calyx, A Stitch in Time


"Shame on you, Barack Obama!" -
Hillary Clinton

"It's the economy, stupid." - Bill Clinton
Romulus Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 07:28 AM   #36
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

^ So, it looks like you're done editing and re-editing your other reply to me. I'll still give you a little time just in case there's anything else you want to change. Will be back later.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 08:21 AM   #37
SonicRanger
Rear Admiral
 
SonicRanger's Avatar
 
Location: Sheffield, England
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

So I was looking at the new Blu-ray "Code of Honor" screencaps at Trekcore to look at the production design and search for cultural references in the designs.

First, I noticed that Lutan's chair is vaguely similar to some West African chieftain stools:

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...nor_hd_202.jpg

Then I got distracted by how sheer the fabric of Yareena's shirt is:

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...nor_hd_208.jpg
__________________
"STAR TREK is... Action - Adventure - Science Fiction."
-- Gene Roddenberry, 1964, top of the first page of his original pitch and outline for Star Trek
SonicRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 08:24 AM   #38
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post

No one is trying to convince you of anything. You had one reaction and opinion of the episode, and other people, including myself, had another. You would be making a good point with the Cardassians, the Romulans, and the Borg if most of the best races and heros in Trek history weren’t also cast using white actors. The trick of trying to create a “made up” issue by only specifying only half of it is always interesting to me.

IMO, the episode had racially insensitive themes, and if anyone is trying to convince me otherwise, it’s because they want justifications for their feelings. I just felt like maybe I could give a little of the disregarding of anyone that had a different reaction back to you.

“Myth,” and “much ado about nothing” are also opinions of yours based off of your experience. The fact that you actually think that they were “cool” says enough to me. When anyone can take the offense that a number of people had to the same thing for the same reasons and waive it off as “watering down” racism and what’s racist, that is very sad to me because it says they are not very open to how other people experience things. And it’s when we are not open to how other people experience the world that things like “sexism,” “racism,” “homophobia,” etc. have the greatest likelihood of carrying on. Just my opinion, of course. Take it if you will.
Well said.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 09:47 AM   #39
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

@R. Star - Thank you.

----


Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
No, it is just a show, and like anything else, is made more than this by personal opinion. Now, I love most of Star Trek and I'll argue points and circumstances against opinions I oppose, but at the end of the day, I don't lose track of the fact it's anything more than a form of entertainment.
The pioneering that happened in Star Trek is more than just personal opinion; it is fact. I can list some of those facts if you’d like. You’re right that it is a form of entertainment, but it is also a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
A form of entertainment becomes more than what it is based on personal opinion. People can share the same or similar opinions which is why we're on this site full of Trekkies. But at the end of the day, Star Trek is a form of entertainment. What it does to people is a byproduct of being a form of entertainment.
And that is exactly why it is a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
The accomplishments as a result of Star Trek are non-sequitor to the conversation - Ligonians are aliens on a TV show. They look like humans. The ones we see have a dark skin tone. They have a concept of honor which is different than what a "Western Euro" mindset may have, but then so do other aliens like Klingons and Romulans.

Go figure.
The “conversation” was about whether the Ligonians were aliens or human. They were presented as “aliens” that looked very human, and a very specific kind of human at that. Throw in some stereotypes/tv tropes and “Houston, we have a problem,” is where many in the audience ended up by the episode’s end.

What "best races?" You mean the Middle Eastern looking Vulcans? The tanned or dark-skinned Klingons?

And Heroes like my favorite Captain, Ben Sisko? My 2nd favorite Vulcan, Tuvok? Are you purposely discounting Geordi and Uhura? Hell, what about Nu-Uhura who's bumped McCoy down to #4 in importance? And heaven forbid a black actor or actress gets cast as a cool bad guy like Commander Sirol or Legate Broca - they might get the Wesley Snipes treatment for being cast as Simon Phoenix.

This could be 100% valid if not for the fact the Ligonians are an alien race with different customs and totally not real.
Vulcans don’t look middle eastern to me, but most of them are played by whites. With Klingons, there was more of a mix, but they are a warrior race that loves blood and fighting, so I don’t know if that had something to do with it or not. I will say that I love Klingons and I appreciate the mix there. Worf and Martok are my favorites.

As to the rest of your quote here, you seem to be overlooking the fact that no one said that no black or non-white heroes existed; what was said is that most are white. Not including TAS (which I never saw, so I can’t speak for), Sisko was 1 out of 5 lead captains, the rest of which were white, just as an example. 80% white, in this case, would mean most, and it would also be consistent with what was said. This is true with the other characters you mentioned as well, but that’s not to say that anything needed to change in their cases, only that the facts are the facts. I am very happy with and for those other characters (you’ll see one of them in my username and signature ), but that doesn’t negate my point, like you seem to think it does.

BTW - we are only privy to a small example of these people from one location on their planet. Who says they're all black? The people who assume every Ligonian is, it would seem...

[IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5COwner%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsoh tmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image001.gif[/IMG]
Who says they’re not all black or at least black looking? The episode didn’t show anything else, so all we have to go off of is what we did see. If they wanted to show the Ligonians as a mixing of colors and shades, then they could have done so quite easily, but they didn’t. That was part of the point. I’m beginning to think you just don’t want to see anything but a world (fictional and/or real) where only the most overt racism and racial insensitivities exist and count. It would be nice if that were the case.

Oh, I did. I liked how Hagon and Yareena not only found a way to get together and basically turned the tables on Lutan, who was obviously corrupt with power - an aspect of having authority and leadership which can happen to just about everyone in real life or in Star Trek no matter what race/species/ethnicity they are.
Those basic plot-points weren’t the issue, and I’m sure you already know this by now.

But yeah, by all means, feel free to explain further why my opinion "says enough" to you...
There’s nothing to explain. Just reread your posts…

When anyone can take the offense that a number of people had to the same thing for the same reasons and waive it off as “watering down” racism and what’s racist, that is very sad to me because it says they are not very open to how other people experience things.
OR it's just like what I said.
We’ll have to agree to disagree, then.

And it’s when we are not open to how other people experience the world that things like “sexism,” “racism,” “homophobia,” etc. have the greatest likelihood of carrying on.
OR it get's perpetuated by people being comfortable as the victim, OR by others who want to have power over people who feel like the victim. May I suggest listening to Larry Elder...

[IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5COwner%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsoh tmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image002.gif[/IMG]
You seem to want to make the people who were offended by that episode into people that either 1. want to be victims or 2. people that want to hold people down by making them feel like victims that can’t do anything for themselves. You mention Larry Elder, and I don’t know, but maybe that’s where you’re getting this stuff from? It’s kind of odd how you’re trying to turn people into something they very well might not be so you can then berate them for being that, and all because their reaction wasn’t the same as yours. That’s a fabrication, pure and simple. I’m sorry to have to say it because I’m sorry that it appears to be true.

I didn’t say about you or anyone that holds your opinion that you want to see blacks as savages because it’s cool and you want black people, or at least darker skinned people, to look “tribal” because of some need you have, regardless of what your race or racial make-up may be. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t make things up about me and some of the other people here. While I don’t agree with your conclusions, I am open to your experience.


Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
For the black people and Oscars thing, I think the key word in the point that was being made was “major.” Major roles are not supporting roles.
Well, I think perhaps I understand your viewpoint in this regard - supporting characters apparently do not have enough significance with regards to moving a story forward, therefore the awards are insignificant.
No one said that, and I don’t think anyone would. You seem to be moving goal posts here. The example used was that of “major” roles; you didn’t seem to understand that, and so you go on this whole thing about supporting characters. Then, you suggest that I am saying that supporting characters aren’t important to storylines moving forward and whatnot when your error is pointed out. As Spock would say: Fascinating!
Like I suggested, give Larry Elder a try. G'day to you...
Like Clarence Thomas, I can understand and even agree sometimes with Mr. Elder on some issues, or at least conclusions, but for the purpose of not derailing this thread, I’ll leave that be. I would like to make what might be some helpful suggestions to you too, but unfortunately you seem all too happy and satisfied with your outlook on things. Good day to you as well.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 09:47 AM   #40
SonicRanger
Rear Admiral
 
SonicRanger's Avatar
 
Location: Sheffield, England
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Were the Tamarians...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Children_of_Tama

... racist because African American actors portrayed aliens whose speech is hard for the white characters to understand? Does it have insensitive connotations regarding African American Vernacular English (i.e., "ebonics")?
__________________
"STAR TREK is... Action - Adventure - Science Fiction."
-- Gene Roddenberry, 1964, top of the first page of his original pitch and outline for Star Trek
SonicRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 10:13 AM   #41
Spock/Uhura Fan
Captain
 
Spock/Uhura Fan's Avatar
 
Location: Where It's At.
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

^ I haven't seen this episode or it was so long ago I've forgotten it, but I looked at a YouTube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukMNfTnI5M8

From what I can tell, there isn't an issue here because this episode appears to be better written and handled in a much better way. I don't know about his speech being hard just for white characters??? Picard just seemed like anyone trying to communicate with someone that doesn't fully speak their language and he doesn't fully speak theirs. The contrast seems to be rather stark between Code of Honor and Darmok, but I can't say for sure until I see all of the Darmok ep. Anyway, it seems like a good example of how to do things better if not right from my view.
__________________
MA'AM. Hot damn, I can dig it.

“The history of men's opposition to women's emancipation is more interesting perhaps than the story of that emancipation itself.” - Virginia Woolf
Spock/Uhura Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 11:18 AM   #42
SonicRanger
Rear Admiral
 
SonicRanger's Avatar
 
Location: Sheffield, England
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Or is it just that the Tamarians have sufficiently bumpy heads that the audience perceives them as "aliens" rather than "1940s tribal Africans in space"? The Tamarians, after all, do kidnap the white hero and force him into a knife fight.
__________________
"STAR TREK is... Action - Adventure - Science Fiction."
-- Gene Roddenberry, 1964, top of the first page of his original pitch and outline for Star Trek
SonicRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 11:36 AM   #43
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Then I got distracted by how sheer the fabric of Yareena's shirt is:

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...nor_hd_208.jpg
Huh. I swear you c an see her areolas! Oh, William Theiss you never cease to amaze.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 04:11 PM   #44
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
And what actually happened was really bad if you consider that a large number of people were turned off from it. My guess is that wasn't the intent either. What offends some people might not offend others, but to call that offense "distortion" and "oversimplification" sounds like a distortion and an oversimplification in and of itself.
That's absolutely not what I'm saying, and I'm saddened that you've so profoundly misread my intent. I do not disagree at all that there is much about this episode that is worthy of criticism, and that it raises important issues about racial and cultural prejudice that deserve to be confronted. But the very importance and emotional impact of those issues is exactly why it is incumbent upon us to evaluate the facts of the matter carefully so that we can know exactly what it is that we're judging and critiquing. It's important to critique things that are done wrongly, but that's why it's so important to make sure we're focusing our critiques on the right things instead of on imperfect recollections or hearsay.

I am not trying to debate the morals here. I'm just trying to clarify the facts of the event. If you put someone on trial in a courtroom, you don't just make up charges or ask people what they heard about it secondhand by the water cooler; you present the evidence, you present the testimony of firsthand witnesses, you make sure the jury is considering the actual facts of the case so that they can make an informed and responsible judgment. All I'm trying to do here is present the specifics of the case of "Code of Honor" as accurately as possible. I'm not saying we shouldn't judge it; I'm saying let's judge it based on a detailed understanding of what it actually is.


But you blamed Ms. Powers for writing a bad script, or at least that's what it looked like.
Again, I'm not doing anything as simplistic as looking for a single scapegoat. I think there are many contributing factors here, a concatenation of things that produced an unfortunate result, and I'm simply trying to evaluate and understand what happened.


What's that saying? "You can't make a good movie with a bad script, but you can make a bad movie with a good one." If she wrote a bad script, then the episode was doomed to begin with. If she wrote a good script and, through the approval process, it was rewritten into something she never meant for it to be, well then that's different. Do you know if that's what happened?
Again, you're misreading what I'm trying to do here. I'm not trying to pin blame on any one person. I'm trying to show that there were multiple factors contributing to why this episode went so wrong. On the one hand, you have the script which was attempting to be a "respectful" portrayal of a samurai-like culture with a bit of Native American thrown in, but which was steeped in condescending Orientalist stereotypes. On the other hand, you have a casting process which, for some reason, selected an "African" presentation for the Ligonians, both in the choice of actors cast and in the choice of accents they used. What resulted was a mix of similarly condescending stereotypes, and since the Orientalist stereotypes had a lot of overlap with our culture's black/African stereotypes, the overall perception was of a "tribal Africa" stereotype, even though the intent of the script was based on a completely different stereotype.

I absolutely agree that the episode suffered from being built around ethnic prejudices, but what I'm trying to get across is that it's not exclusively about black or African stereotypes -- that there were other condescending stereotypes in play as well and that the different stereotypical elements combined into a whole melting pot of ethnic condescension. Which just goes to show that all ethnic stereotypes are pretty much the same and are equally harmful. But I don't think any one person, be it a writer, producer, or director, can be singled out for blame. I think they were all trying to do different things that were all flawed in their own way and ended up producing a worse result than any one of them alone would have.


And interestingly enough, Emancipation, as bad as it was, it was not nearly as bad as Code of Honor to me or as offensive.
I can understand it not hitting as close to home because the ethnic group involved is more remote from our Western experience. But it was deeply condescending and grossly inaccurate in its portrayal of Mongols. It painted them as a culture that oppresses women and keeps them secluded in purdah, which is ridiculous and wrong. The fact is that women traditionally had much higher status in Mongol and other horse-nomad societies than they did in pre-modern sedentary agrarian societies. Nomads can't afford to keep half their population segregated and useless; everyone needs to contribute. Mongol women participated in politics and war alongside the men and were valued for their contributions.

There was also the ludicrous approach to women's costuming in the episode -- painting these Mongols as keeping women veiled and hidden, yet having them put Carter in a dress with a plunging neckline that showed a lot of skin. That's completely self-contradictory. From an anthropological, sociological, and historical perspective, it was just painfully wrong.


Well, it seems wild and uncontrolled to me to steal a member of another group of people you've never come in contact with and take them as your own.
Not if the culture you belong to has clear, predetermined rules and rituals for such an abduction and you follow those rules to the letter. Other cultures may find that behavior to be immoral and unjust, but it's still very controlled and disciplined, and by your own culture's standards, entirely civilized and ethical.


I think, based on the script, that I would consider that act savage--because I do, in fact, consider that savage behavior.
Then I don't think you're using the word "savage" correctly. I don't disagree with your belief that it's a bad thing, but there are better words to describe it. "Savage" doesn't just mean "a thing I don't like," it means ferocious, untamed, wild, barbarous. Frankly it's a very racially loaded term -- calling another culture savage is implicitly calling them subhuman. If your intent is to protest the racial stereotypes in "Code of Honor," then you're working against your own credibility by using that term, and I'd recommend you find a less dehumanizing one.


It's very presumptuous to assume that the audience is "misremembering" anything.
It's not presumptuous at all, because it's based on the actual facts of the case. I've consulted the transcript of "Code of Honor" for the actual dialogue, and I've looked at screencaps so I could see the costume and set designs that were used, and some of the statements people have made about the content of the episode have clearly been incorrect.

If you don't agree with the conclusions other people made, that's one thing, but to suggest that only people that agree with you came to the "right" one is something else.
Again, you've completely misread my intent. I don't disagree with the moral conclusion that "Code of Honor" is objectionable due to its stereotypes. I'm just trying to point out that the reality is more complicated than many are assuming -- and if anything, perhaps even worse than people are assuming, because there are actually multiple ethnic prejudices contributing to the result rather than just one.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2012, 06:52 PM   #45
Romulus Prime
Lieutenant Commander
 
Romulus Prime's Avatar
 
Location: The broken state of California
Re: "Code of Honor" Ligonians: Humans or Aliens?

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
^ So, it looks like you're done editing and re-editing your other reply to me. I'll still give you a little time just in case there's anything else you want to change. Will be back later.
Yes, accidentally hitting "Submit Reply" rather than "Preview Post" can be quite an annoyance. Not the 1st or last time that will happen.


And that is exactly why it is a form of entertainment that did more than just entertain.
Due to personal opinion.

It's not too different than religion. Many people claim that it's the cause of wars, but in reality, it's an inanimate thing - religion does not cause wars; people's decision to use it as a means to be violent is the cause of conflict.




The “conversation” was about whether the Ligonians were aliens or human. They were presented as “aliens” that looked very human, and a very specific kind of human at that. Throw in some stereotypes/tv tropes and “Houston, we have a problem,” is where many in the audience ended up by the episode’s end.
Vulcans don’t look middle eastern to me, but most of them are played by whites. With Klingons, there was more of a mix, but they are a warrior race that loves blood and fighting, so I don’t know if that had something to do with it or not. I will say that I love Klingons and I appreciate the mix there. Worf and Martok are my favorites.
I'm very much interested in the Middle East, and I've always thought Vulcans (and many Romulans) have more Middle Eastern features and skin tones. With regards to Klingons, they are usually NOT white/pale unless super old, and with that, my guess is the make up department wants their skin tone to reflect that.



Sisko was 1 out of 5 lead captains, the rest of which were white, just as an example. 80% white, in this case,
How many Persian Captains are there?
Chinese?
Mexican?
Half & Half humans like me?
Vulcan?
Andorian?
Tellarite?

It only matters if you want it to, just like the only lead captains I care about are Sisko, Kirk and Picard - in that order.


I am very happy with and for those other characters (you’ll see one of them in my username and signature ), but that doesn’t negate my point, like you seem to think it does.
I don't think it negates anything, but this seems more like a "glass half empty" sort of discussion.


Who says they’re not all black or at least black looking? The episode didn’t show anything else, so all we have to go off of is what we did see. If they wanted to show the Ligonians as a mixing of colors and shades, then they could have done so quite easily, but they didn’t.
When people say "African" most seem to forget the differences in appearances and ethnicities, from Sudanese, to Ethiopian, to Arab, to the more recent and non-indigenous Europeans. So if someone says something vague such as "it's like African" I can't help but consider the diversity of people and cultures of that continent, and wonder what they mean by their claim.

That was part of the point. I’m beginning to think you just don’t want to see anything but a world (fictional and/or real) where only the most overt racism and racial insensitivities exist and count. It would be nice if that were the case.
As I said, I've seen and received both sides of the "race" issue. Oddly enough, I received it more from non-whites. Go figure.

Those basic plot-points weren’t the issue, and I’m sure you already know this by now.

There’s nothing to explain. Just reread your posts…

We’ll have to agree to disagree, then.
Again, I have no issue with the episode. They're aliens. It's a different culture. As far as "agreeing to disagree" - I don't believe in that statement; IMO it's a PC way to say "let's pretend we're having an agreement."

There is no agreement here, and that's actually OK. We disagree, and I'm fine with disagreeing. I don't take it personally.


You seem to want to make the people who were offended by that episode into people that either 1. want to be victims or 2. people that want to hold people down by making them feel like victims that can’t do anything for themselves.
No, what I'm seeing is people who want to be offended. You can either hold on to that, or let it go. Coincidentally, that seems to be one of the aspects which perpetuates continued prejudice among people. BTW - I'm not saying this about you personally, I'm saying it in general.


You mention Larry Elder, and I don’t know, but maybe that’s where you’re getting this stuff from? It’s kind of odd how you’re trying to turn people into something they very well might not be so you can then berate them for being that, and all because their reaction wasn’t the same as yours. That’s a fabrication, pure and simple. I’m sorry to have to say it because I’m sorry that it appears to be true.
Again, you either hold on to what your offended by or let it. I know I'm guilty of holding on to animosity: Just look at my anti-Nemesis posts...



I didn’t say about you or anyone that holds your opinion that you want to see blacks as savages because it’s cool and you want black people, or at least darker skinned people, to look “tribal” because of some need you have, regardless of what your race or racial make-up may be.
I know that, and I didn't say you did.


I’d appreciate it if you didn’t make things up about me and some of the other people here. While I don’t agree with your conclusions, I am open to your experience.
I respond to what's written in posts, thus I quote as you do. I'm not "making up" anything, or would your implication that "you know" what your dealing with from the earlier post about me fall into this category as well? We're both assuming much based on posts and what's written. And with regards to that, I have to wonder how many people assumed I was full white before I said I was only half...


No one said that, and I don’t think anyone would. You seem to be moving goal posts here. The example used was that of “major” roles; you didn’t seem to understand that, and so you go on this whole thing about supporting characters. Then, you suggest that I am saying that supporting characters aren’t important to storylines moving forward and whatnot when your error is pointed out. As Spock would say: Fascinating!
Untrue.

1. Poitier won best actor for Lilies in the Field, hence my posting him. That wasn't a supporting role.


2. I purposely omitted the ones you posted because Morpheus said, and I quote: "...for African Americans, the major Oscars they've won has been only messed up people or maids..."


3. Yes, I suggested that you were implying less significance to supporting characters because to you and the other guy, the roles apparently don't count as "major." When was the last time you or I got an Oscar? Any entertainment award? Hell, a role on a TV show, Movie, or even a commercial?



....



OK then.


Like Clarence Thomas, I can understand and even agree sometimes with Mr. Elder on some issues, or at least conclusions, but for the purpose of not derailing this thread, I’ll leave that be. I would like to make what might be some helpful suggestions to you too, but unfortunately you seem all too happy and satisfied with your outlook on things. Good day to you as well.
For the most part, I am happy because I can sift through the "grey area" and I don't walk on eggshells. I prefer to save the terms "racist" and "racism" for what's blatant and deserves it, otherwise they run the risk of getting diluted and losing their significance. That to me is FAR more dangerous a path to follow...

__________________
Centurion: "...power is danger."

Romulan Commander: "Danger and I are old companions." - TOS episode Balance of Terror


"Living in your dreams is like living in exile.
" - Calyx, A Stitch in Time


"Shame on you, Barack Obama!" -
Hillary Clinton

"It's the economy, stupid." - Bill Clinton
Romulus Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:14 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.