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Old August 28 2012, 12:13 AM   #61
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

gturner wrote: View Post
For young children creation is a story that has an understandable cast of characters, a purpose, moral lessons, and a reasonably coherent narrative that can reinforce parental efforts to make children behave.
So can Star Wars but you wouldn't teach it as history on grounds that it happened a long, long time ago.
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Old August 28 2012, 12:23 AM   #62
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Teaching children origin myths is perfectly acceptable, IMO, but those myths do not belong in the science class, and even teached as part of a religious study, it needs to be emphasized the myth is one of many, and all of them are derived from oral traditions passed down, and are not, in any way, verifiable.
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Old August 28 2012, 12:45 AM   #63
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

In the end creationism vs. evolution is all about control. Evolution is not a theory about the origin of life but the ORIGIN OF SPECIES. Organic chemistry has given us some clues about how life came about but we will never know the whole story. I personally don't think any creation story was meant to be taken literally. It was just filler, humanity's best guess at the time. The Hebrews came closest of all the ancient people but they did it by ignoring details ("God did it") or being metaphysical ("God pored his spirit/Breadth in to Adam") . The conflict arises because the control of the interpretation of reality is the ultimate form of control. The white patriarchy that rules America does not want to lose control therefore are fighting this meaningless fight.

That being said I don't want scientist to have that control either. They can be as biased as anyone else and "self-correction" can take generation to occur even with a mountain of evidence.
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Old August 28 2012, 01:08 AM   #64
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Venardhi wrote: View Post
The larger and more successful a population is, the less they would benefit from further selection. Mutation is still possible, and some have the potential of becoming dominant and being passed on, but it is going to be a far slower process than in a smaller and more competitive population.
I'm not sure the development of the human race can be attributed purely to the natural processes of evolution anymore, given that human creations and decision-making have entered the equation. Deliberate manipulation through medical technology, such as providing for those with genetic disorders, and other results of human decision making also have an impact on how humanity will continue to develop.

The biochemical behavior of genes hasn't changed, but our decision-making has affected things and should also be taken into account when considering human evolution.

J. Allen wrote: View Post
People, of late, have this idea that there are two sides to everything, and that just isn't the case. Having an open mind doesn't mean blindly accepting everything on it's own merits without critically thinking. There aren't always two sides to everything. Sometimes, the other idea is simply baloney.
Sometimes there are other sides that have merit that you may not have considered, though. I don't consider "creationism," referring to theories that insist on bending scientific fact, to be correct. However, you seem to ignore the fact that there is a significant number of people who are of faith but have no problem whatsoever with mainstream science. That, I think, is a reasonable choice to make.

The two ideas are not even remotely equal. It would be as if you described to me the physics involved behind the development of a star, and I answer with "God said let there be light, and that's how it happened." There's just no reasonable comparison.
I would say I thought God was behind the creation of said star through the mechanisms you just described. No alterations to physics, timelines, or anything else you outlined, and no insinuations that anything science has found out about that star is incorrect.

For me the whole thing is just a pointless argument by radical ideologues on both sides. Science contradicts literalist faith, but does not contradict the idea of ALL faith.
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Old August 28 2012, 01:58 AM   #65
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Venardhi wrote: View Post
The larger and more successful a population is, the less they would benefit from further selection. Mutation is still possible, and some have the potential of becoming dominant and being passed on, but it is going to be a far slower process than in a smaller and more competitive population.
I'm not sure the development of the human race can be attributed purely to the natural processes of evolution anymore, given that human creations and decision-making have entered the equation. Deliberate manipulation through medical technology, such as providing for those with genetic disorders, and other results of human decision making also have an impact on how humanity will continue to develop.

The biochemical behavior of genes hasn't changed, but our decision-making has affected things and should also be taken into account when considering human evolution.

J. Allen wrote: View Post
People, of late, have this idea that there are two sides to everything, and that just isn't the case. Having an open mind doesn't mean blindly accepting everything on it's own merits without critically thinking. There aren't always two sides to everything. Sometimes, the other idea is simply baloney.
Sometimes there are other sides that have merit that you may not have considered, though. I don't consider "creationism," referring to theories that insist on bending scientific fact, to be correct. However, you seem to ignore the fact that there is a significant number of people who are of faith but have no problem whatsoever with mainstream science. That, I think, is a reasonable choice to make.

The two ideas are not even remotely equal. It would be as if you described to me the physics involved behind the development of a star, and I answer with "God said let there be light, and that's how it happened." There's just no reasonable comparison.
I would say I thought God was behind the creation of said star through the mechanisms you just described. No alterations to physics, timelines, or anything else you outlined, and no insinuations that anything science has found out about that star is incorrect.

For me the whole thing is just a pointless argument by radical ideologues on both sides. Science contradicts literalist faith, but does not contradict the idea of ALL faith.
Faith isn't the issue. Teaching faith as fact is the issue.
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Old August 28 2012, 02:46 AM   #66
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

I don't think the public schools should be teaching creationism as science. I also would never teach my own children that it is science.

However, I would take great issue if anyone suggested that private schools and homeschooling organizations, and parents on their own be forbidden from religious teachings. Perhaps require understanding of proper evolutionary theory to pass state testing requirements in science, since that would guarantee exposure to the other viewpoint, but I would not forbid parents or private schools from religious teaching. That is something that would be highly illegal.
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Old August 28 2012, 02:58 AM   #67
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Predictably, this thread has jumped the shark.
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Old August 28 2012, 03:01 AM   #68
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Yeah, what we've got in this thread is people being more concerned about religious freedom than their kids having a basic understanding of science.

Unbelievable.
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Old August 28 2012, 03:28 AM   #69
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Yeah, what we've got in this thread is people being more concerned about religious freedom than their kids having a basic understanding of science.

Unbelievable.
Yeah, it's like Sir Isaac Newton spending years writing commentaries on the Book of Daniel.
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Old August 28 2012, 04:08 AM   #70
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

gturner wrote: View Post
creationist-scientists
Are you really being serious with that term?
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Old August 28 2012, 04:11 AM   #71
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I don't think the public schools should be teaching creationism as science. I also would never teach my own children that it is science.

However, I would take great issue if anyone suggested that private schools and homeschooling organizations, and parents on their own be forbidden from religious teachings. Perhaps require understanding of proper evolutionary theory to pass state testing requirements in science, since that would guarantee exposure to the other viewpoint, but I would not forbid parents or private schools from religious teaching. That is something that would be highly illegal.
No one is saying force kids to deny their religious upbringing in favor of genuine scientific study. Nye is simply saying that children who are taught these myths instead of critical thinking skills, grow up unequipped and unready to deal with the scientific community. He is right.
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Old August 28 2012, 04:31 AM   #72
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

J. Allen wrote: View Post
No one is saying force kids to deny their religious upbringing in favor of genuine scientific study.
If you read between the lines, I think that's exactly what he's saying. Religion only works if it's presented as unerring eternal TRUTH. Present that in any other way and its essentially meaningless. There you have the conflict between atheists and believers.

Atheists aren't being honest. They know promoting critical thinking will weaken religions because religions require the absence of critical thinking. In the end that's their agenda, to slowly strangle religion to obscurity. Of course they are using America's fear of losing our scientific superiority as a way to promote their agenda.
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Old August 28 2012, 04:38 AM   #73
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

What does "highly" illegal mean anyway? Are there shades of illegality? To riff a blogger on the 'net, isn't the difference between illegal and highly illegal pretty much like the difference between slightly pregnant and pregnant?

Well, I can put one and one together. I suppose it means not just illegal but also outrageous, and so not really more illegal than just the regular form of illegality. Is that what highly illegal means, both illegal and outrageous?
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Old August 28 2012, 04:43 AM   #74
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
creationist-scientists
Are you really being serious with that term?
Of course. For several centuries all scientists were young Earth creationists, including Galileo, DeCartes, Mersenne, Newton, Darwin, and everyone else.

There was no alternative to Biblical creation in the running until Lyle, Darwin, and others came up with an evidence based history of the planet, of how it came to exist and be populated with a bewildering variety of living things.

The dispute with Agassiz (one of the world's best-known scientists of his day) is a reflection of the turning away from prior scientists, to whom science was a method of looking into the mind of God during his act of creation. These creationist scientists were the ones who developed the theories, evidence, and data that finally built a framework that allowed us to move past mythical creation stories.
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Old August 28 2012, 04:44 AM   #75
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Re: Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”

Yminale wrote: View Post
If you read between the lines, I think that's exactly what he's saying. Religion only works if it's presented as unerring eternal TRUTH. Present that in any other way and its essentially meaningless. There you have the conflict between atheists and believers.
Religion? Maybe. Spirituality, certainly not.
As for conflict, last I checked, I'm not the one trying to shoehorn mythology into the science class.

Atheists aren't being honest. They know promoting critical thinking will weaken religions because religions require the absence of critical thinking. In the end that's their agenda, to slowly strangle religion to obscurity. Of course they are using America's fear of losing our scientific superiority as a way to promote their agenda.
Um... no, I'm being quite honest.

I want children to think critically because thinking critically is how we build a society. It's how we go to the Moon. It's how we find new ways to advance the species. If a neurological disease were to suddenly afflict millions of human beings, I'd start talking to the neurologists who use scientific data to support their solutions rather than trying to pray it away. There's no agenda here other than facts remaining facts and myths remaining myths.

You're essentially telling me that kids learning to think critically may one day cast aside the religion they have found to be lacking in evidence. Tell me again why that is a bad thing?
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