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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 27 2012, 03:26 AM   #31
DarKush
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^
I can see that, but I would've rather had a Borg v. Sisko: Round Two over just about any of the Voyager Borg episodes. When I think about it, I don't quite get that reasoning. For one, all Trek shows are in a shared universe so they should all have been able to use adversaries from other series, and to a great extent they did: Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians primarily were used by all three shows. So, why not the Borg?

I could accept the argument that they were TNG's thing, if VOY hadn't used them, and used them, and used them. Conversely, I wouldn't have minded if VOY and a TNG film could've found a way to use the Dominion either. If anything, a shared threat makes it bigger to me.

Further, I wouldn't have wanted the Borg to become a recurring adversary on DS9, just a show or two to show Sisko getting some serious payback. Plus it would've been cool seeing how the DS9 crew dealt with them.
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Old August 27 2012, 02:03 PM   #32
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^I agree, I think you're right.
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Old August 27 2012, 02:57 PM   #33
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

It would have been so absolutely awesome had Sisko been in First Contact. That would have been so incredible.
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Old August 27 2012, 03:03 PM   #34
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

R. Star wrote: View Post
Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?
I understand this, and I believe this is what they were going for, however it makes Sisko look like a childish idiot. Picard was not himself and had no control whatsoever over his actions in BoBW. Sisko, a direct victim of those events, should care enough to do the research.

It isn't just unfair to poor Picard, but also kind of stupid to be this rude to an officer who outranks you, who is basically a celebrity and who has significant influence within Starfleet.

Sisko does get over it in the end, and I always thought he realised what a dick he was being, and that his anger was generated by his loss and not by Picard. All's well that ends well.
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Old August 27 2012, 04:52 PM   #35
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?
I understand this, and I believe this is what they were going for, however it makes Sisko look like a childish idiot. Picard was not himself and had no control whatsoever over his actions in BoBW. Sisko, a direct victim of those events, should care enough to do the research.

It isn't just unfair to poor Picard, but also kind of stupid to be this rude to an officer who outranks you, who is basically a celebrity and who has significant influence within Starfleet.

Sisko does get over it in the end, and I always thought he realized what a dick he was being, and that his anger was generated by his loss and not by Picard. All's well that ends well.
Oh don't get me wrong, Sisko -was- being rude and a dick to Picard. Blaming him for his actions as Locutus is hardly fair. But also completely understandable. That scene put a very opposite viewpoint to the victimization of the Borg. Whereas in Best of Both Worlds we saw Picard's utter rape and exploitation, in Emissary, the same battle we see Sisko's loss of his friends and wife along with those other 11,000 people. And it's Picard's face that haunts his nightmares. Really that exchange there was what made the Borg seem so evil.

As for Sisko's being rude to Picard? What was Picard going to do? Write Sisko up and send him and Jake back to Earth? I'm sure that would have disappointed Sisko a lot. He probably was subconsciously daring Picard to do it. Then he could blame the man for ruining his family and his Starfleet career. It really does put perspective on that Bajorian Prophecy where the Prophets are said to have saved the life of the Emissary. Sisko was on a dark road when we first met him.
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Old August 29 2012, 08:21 AM   #36
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

If Picard were a dick himself, he'd probably make life more difficult for Sisko...although, Sisko managed well enough all by himself.

Thing is, although Sisko was being unfair and a moron, I liked the exchange. Shows that humans are not perfect and that there still is room for interpersonal conflict. This is often unfair in real life, as well.
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Old August 29 2012, 10:12 AM   #37
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

R. Star wrote: View Post
I always liked the cameo of Picard in Emissary. Not only does it proverbially pass the torch as previously mentioned, but it serves two other purposes.

One is to give a bit of insight into Picard, you get to see how people outside his circle of acquaintances and people he's comfortable around react to his Borg past and that haunted look on Picard's face. Between Avery Brooks angry glare and Stewart's face deflating so much is said in that one snip without words.

Two is to establish that hey, Sisko isn't like Picard and this isn't the hunky dory TNG crew that sings kumbaya in the meeting room. Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?
I agree with this. Poor Sisko went through a lot, and then to have your wife's murderer in your face and of all things, doling out instructions; it was just too much. Yeah, Picard wasn't himself when it happened, but that doesn't change the fact that the love of Ben's life is gone and he has to raise his motherless child alone.

Sisko's reaction to Picard was very real. It reminds me of reading about right after WWII, and a German woman traveled to France and wanted to room in a little boarding house there. The woman that owned and ran the place wouldn't let her stay because her husband and 2 brothers were killed by the Germans. She said "I'm sorry, but I can't."

With Sisko's loss being so fresh, it's a testament to his self control that he sat there while Picard sipped tea and crossed his legs for a chat, when all Ben could think about was his wife being taken from him, I'm sure. Picard got off easy with a dirty look and an attitude, and I believe he knew it. That exchange was a little uncomfortable to watch the first time around, but that's because it was so real.
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Old August 30 2012, 09:32 AM   #38
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

It's human, but it's totally unfair and I don't agree with this kind of behaviour. But that's neither here nor there....the interaction was very interesting, and I liked it because of the conflict, even if I did side with Picard on that one.
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Old August 30 2012, 11:40 PM   #39
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
It's human, but it's totally unfair and I don't agree with this kind of behaviour. But that's neither here nor there....the interaction was very interesting, and I liked it because of the conflict, even if I did side with Picard on that one.
And my point was that it's "totally unfair" all the way around, so I don't side with either one. Sisko lost the love of his life and his son lost his mother. Picard was used against his will to perform terrible acts that will haunt him for life. To me, there's no "side" to choose in that.
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Old August 31 2012, 03:05 AM   #40
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

The novelization of "Emissary" makes it clear that Sisko realized what a total jerk he'd been earlier and when he saw Picard again at the end he felt ashamed about it and realized he and Picard were both nothing more than victims of the Borg.
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Old August 31 2012, 03:15 AM   #41
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Anwar wrote: View Post
The novelization of "Emissary" makes it clear that Sisko realized what a total jerk he'd been earlier and when he saw Picard again at the end he felt ashamed about it and realized he and Picard were both nothing more than victims of the Borg.
Exactly. They were both victims, so I just don't see why there's a side to pick. Sure, after the wounds of losing his wife weren't fresh, he could afford to have some empathy for Picard. You could say he wasn't fully himself when he had to see and take orders from the man that murdered his wife while the wounds were still fresh because the truth is (and I know from having been there) that you are definitely NOT yourself when you are grieving, even if you are able to function and do what is necessary because you have to press on.

So if people are able to understand Picard not being himself, then I wonder why anyone would have a hard time with Sisko. I don't know. Maybe if you don't know what that kind of losing does to a person and how they carry it (just like Picard has to carry his guilt) with them, and it doesn't ever fully go away, then it's easy to only see one side.
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Old September 3 2012, 10:43 AM   #42
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Anwar wrote: View Post
The novelization of "Emissary" makes it clear that Sisko realized what a total jerk he'd been earlier and when he saw Picard again at the end he felt ashamed about it and realized he and Picard were both nothing more than victims of the Borg.

Shame that wasn't in the episode. Could have used it.
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Old September 3 2012, 11:18 AM   #43
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

I think if that had been in the episode, it would have cheapened the real loss that Sisko and his son underwent. That would have been really bad.
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Old September 3 2012, 11:27 AM   #44
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
I think if that had been in the episode, it would have cheapened the real loss that Sisko and his son underwent. That would have been really bad.
Hm, I don't see how.

His wife and Jake's Mother is still dead. They are both still scarred. He would still hate the Borg forever for what they did.

What loss would have been cheapened exactly?
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Old September 3 2012, 11:36 AM   #45
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^ I didn't say that the loss wouldn't have happened, so of course she was and would still be dead. The feeling of loss was still very real, and you don't just get over that in a day. If they had come to some kind of better footing a few seasons later, that would have made more sense because Sisko would have had time to grieve and start to rebuild his life and learn to let go of some of his anger and resentment. It's too bad that episode didn't happen, but it wasn't necessary because you could tell he'd done that as time went by anyway.
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