MLB Discussion - 2012 Season

[Kira's Mom]

Starbreaker wrote:

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I'm so happy about the Nats. I may be a Mets fan first, but damn it's nice to have a local team on top.

[Skywalker]

The Dodgers are close to acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford, and Nick Punto from the Red Sox.

Holy crap.

[Timby]

Skywalker wrote:

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The Dodgers are close to acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford, and Nick Punto from the Red Sox.

Holy crap.

I mean, you'd have to take some bad apples in order to get your hands on A-Gon, but ... what. I can't imagine any trade for that package that isn't hilariously bad for at least one team, so I am all for this.

I'd also like to imagine Cherington said, "We will give you Gonzalez, Crawford, and Beckett in exchange for (whatever)" but the Dodgers refused to consider it unless Nick Punto was added.

Or that the Red Sox are insisting on getting Mattingly in return, since they appear to have begun their traditional institutional hatchet job on Bobby V.

Edit: Punto and Gonzalez have been scratched from the lineup. James Loney on the Dodgers, too. Holy hell, this is actually going to happen.

[Use of Time]

Timby wrote:

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I mean, you'd have to take some bad apples in order to get your hands on A-Gon, but ... what. I can't imagine any trade for that package that isn't hilariously bad for at least one team, so I am all for this.

I'd also like to imagine Cherington said, "We will give you Gonzalez, Crawford, and Beckett in exchange for (whatever)" but the Dodgers refused to consider it unless Nick Punto was added.

Or that the Red Sox are insisting on getting Mattingly in return, since they appear to have begun their traditional institutional hatchet job on Bobby V.

Edit: Punto and Gonzalez have been scratched from the lineup. James Loney on the Dodgers, too. Holy hell, this is actually going to happen.

I'd love to hear some thoughts on the Red Sox. My opinion is that the clubhouse is divided with the old corps players (Pedroia, Beckett, Gonzalez, Lester, Otiz) and then the younger players (Middlebrooks, Ellsbury etc.) I feel like those corps players made up their mind before the season started that they weren't even going to give Bobby V a chance. Ironically most of these corps players are having shitty years. I feel like the younger players don't have the status yet to rock the boat, so they just shut up and play ball. At some point the owners need to just dive in and say, "look this guy isn't going anywhere." What a mess.

[Timby]

Use of Time wrote:

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I'd love to hear some thoughts on the Red Sox. My opinion is that the clubhouse is divided with the old corps players (Pedroia, Beckett, Gonzalez, Lester, Otiz) and then the younger players (Middlebrooks, Ellsbury etc.) I feel like those corps players made up their mind before the season started that they weren't even going to give Bobby V a chance. Ironically most of these corps players are having shitty years. I feel like the younger players don't have the status yet to rock the boat, so they just shut up and play ball. At some point the owners need to just dive in and say, "look this guy isn't going anywhere." What a mess.

It's that they're an incredibly dysfunctional organization. Remember that Robert Andino is the butterfly that flapped his beautiful backup infielder wings, and in doing so caused hundreds of millions of dollars of property damage to the Red Sox brand. Without him they'd probably still have Francona and Epstein and be firing on all cylinders; the team's management seems to have gotten very caught up in the dramatics since then, to the massive detriment of the organization. (I know I harp on this a lot, but just look at the way they traded Kevin Youkilis for a bag of dogshit -- only to release the dogshit soon after -- when there was no need to trade him.)

They are and have been a very, very fucked-up organization for quite some time, as evidenced by how no one leaves without having a massive hatchet job done on them. Bobby V's is already in progress, and Lucchino's going to plant a story in the papers that Adrian Gonzalez was molesting puppies in the clubhouse or something similarly absurd within a few weeks of this trade going through.

[Use of Time]

Yeah I think that is spot on. Bobby V is going to get crucified for this and now they are unloading all of those ridiculous contracts on LA somehow. I don't like Bobby V all that much but I swear it's almost like these players are sabotaging him. I can't stand Pedroia. ESPN loves to prop this guy up with all of that, "he's small and scrappy, he just loves the game, blah blah blah." He's the ringleader in all of this I feel. He also continues to have a season that is subpar. I get it Boston, you miss Terry F. Grow up.

[Scout101]

Not sure what to say on this one yet. Hate getting rid of Gonzo, and Crawford was showing what he could be since he came back (minus detour to have TJ surgery). Beckett HAD to go, though, and not a Punto fan. I guess to clear that much money (rumor is LA paying all but like 10 mil total of this one), Gonzo was the price to pay.

On one hand, plenty of room to do whatever now, and a ton more prospects to play with in trades over the winter, or incorporate some and trade some of ours, whatever.

It's definitely a blow it up and rebuild moment, though. This one just wasn't getting it done, but still drastic. Bobby V had better go, as well as clearing out most of the staff in the offseason.

This should also be the way that Ellsbury gets his money to stay with the Sox. He gets Crawford's deal, give or take...

[Tom Hendricks]

No way Bobby V goes. Well I guess he could, but I just don't think it will happen. Obviously from all the trades, they are pitching this directly on the players. So they will clear everyone out and give Bobby V a few veterans and some young players and see what he can do in three years.

[Skywalker]

According to Jon Heyman on Twitter, Carl Crawford has approved the trade to the Dodgers (he had a few teams on a no-trade list in his contract, and they were one of them), and Beckett has also agreed to the trade. Apparently all that's left is Beckett's physical.

Damn. Once this goes through, the Red Sox payroll will drop to like $45 million, I think. Or that might be next year's payroll (not including any deals between now and then).

I just hope they don't immediately blow all that extra space on bad contracts again. They need to go back to building up their farm system and developing talent from the ground up.

As for Valentine, he won't be here in three years. He might stick around next year if the Sox think they have a shot at getting John Farrell after his deal ends with the Blue Jays, but otherwise all bets are off.

And I'm not sure that the Red Sox will want to give Ellsbury a Craword-type deal even with their new flexibility. They've got Jackie Bradley, Jr. waiting in the wings, and all indications are that he's going to be excellent.

[Use of Time]

Skywalker wrote:

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According to Jon Heyman on Twitter, Carl Crawford has approved the trade to the Dodgers (he had a few teams on a no-trade list in his contract, and they were one of them), and Beckett has also agreed to the trade. Apparently all that's left is Beckett's physical.

Damn. Once this goes through, the Red Sox payroll will drop to like $45 million, I think. Or that might be next year's payroll (not including any deals between now and then).

I just hope they don't immediately blow all that extra space on bad contracts again. They need to go back to building up their farm system and developing talent from the ground up.

As for Valentine, he won't be here in three years. He might stick around next year if the Sox think they have a shot at getting John Farrell after his deal ends with the Blue Jays, but otherwise all bets are off.

And I'm not sure that the Red Sox will want to give Ellsbury a Craword-type deal even with their new flexibility. They've got Jackie Bradley, Jr. waiting in the wings, and all indications are that he's going to be excellent.

I think this trade all but makes it certain that Bobby V will stay on as manager. They are unloading some of the problem children here and I suspect they might move some more of them in the off season.

Also, man how do the Dodgers afford all of this. They went nuts during the trade deadline and now they bring in all of this. They upgrade everywhere.

Gonzo > Loney
Punto > Ellis

Beckett might be rejuvenated to be on a contender. Look what it did for Hanley Ramirez

Crawford is an upgrade in left. The Dodgers are ready to go all in this year.

[Timby]

I just hope they don't immediately blow all that extra space on bad contracts again. They need to go back to building up their farm system and developing talent from the ground up.

We all know they're going to get desperate in the offseason and offer Hamilton the first billion-dollar contract.

Use of Time wrote:

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Also, man how do the Dodgers afford all of this. They went nuts during the trade deadline and now they bring in all of this. They upgrade everywhere.

Gonzo > Loney
Punto > Ellis

Beckett might be rejuvenated to be on a contender. Look what it did for Hanley Ramirez

Crawford is an upgrade in left. The Dodgers are ready to go all in this year.

Eh, they can afford it due to new ownership trying to prove that they aren't corrupt sacks of shit like Frank McCourt. While Gonzalez over Loney is about as big of an improvement as you can possibly make at that position, Punto doesn't play plus defense anymore and he's hitting at the Mendoza line, so he's really a wash. As for Beckett, I suspect that moving from Fenway to Dodger Stadium will probably make him look a lot more like old Josh Beckett than 2012 Josh Beckett.

[Timby]

Holy fucking LOL, the Sox haven't even waited until the trade is finalized to begin the hatchet job:

Gonzalez had become a whiner who seemed to be involved in starting a group to complain about Valentine. He seemed to have an opinion on everything, and rubbed his managers the wrong way. Gonzalez was never the guy we thought he was supposed to be, no leadership skills whatsoever.

And Crawford never fit from the outset. The Sox needed a righthanded-hitting outfielder and instead got a lefthanded hitter. Even owner John Henry said that the Sox didn’t need Crawford, but he went along with Theo Epstein’s recommendation. Crawford had a horrible 2011, and then required wrist and elbow surgeries in 2012. That the Dodgers would be willing to take him is startling, but they must feel he will rebound.

Never mind that the Crawford deal was John Henry's doing all the way, until it became clear that Epstein was on the way out and Henry decided to blame it on him...

I can't wait to see the shit-talking they plant about Punto.

[Skywalker]

Ugh, that's probably my least favorite part about being a Red Sox fan. I hate the way the organization treats (most) people that are on their way out.

[Timby]

Skywalker wrote:

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Ugh, that's probably my least favorite part about being a Red Sox fan. I hate the way the organization treats (most) people that are on their way out.

I can't think of the last dude with any name value who left the organization without getting ripped to shreds in the media. They put the screws to Pedro Martinez, for fuck's sake.

[Use of Time]

Timby wrote:

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I can't think of the last dude with any name value who left the organization without getting ripped to shreds in the media. They put the screws to Pedro Martinez, for fuck's sake.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see these players elevate their game in LA too. The NL west isn't really loaded with offense so even Beckett should get some confidence back.