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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Sports and Fitness

Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old August 24 2012, 08:28 PM   #61
Deckerd
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Well exactly. The damage this does goes way beyond Armstrong himself, and I don't mean the precious cycling fraternity.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:31 PM   #62
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I think getting stripped of his TdF titles will destroy his 'brand'. This man was a global hero; hell he was a hero in France - how often does that happen to anyone who isn't French?
Well, there's Napoleone di Buonaparte.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:33 PM   #63
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Well, as Alidar suggested people tend to choose their sides and hang on to what they're already inclined to believe. Didn't someone recently post links around here to an article discussing the ineffectiveness of factual argument in changing people's long-held beliefs and opinions?

But yeah, he's probably toast in France. There's that.
Not all opinions are inherently equal though. I've followed cycling for a long time. That Armstrong cheated, and always cheated, is self-evident.

People who still think Armstrong was clean, or maybe clean or even not-more-dirty than his opponents are about on the same level as people who still think Saddam Hussein threatened the USA with WMDs and had something to do with 9/11. Yeah, you're probably not going to change their minds, but that doesn't make them right.

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
For years in the late 90's I was reading about people who were totally inspired by this man and his battle against cancer.
And this foundation of his apparently raises oodles of money for cancer research, something like fifty million a year. Hopefully that doesn't take too much of a hit since it's worthwhile. Apparently Nike is sticking with him and it, for now - but then, they're running out of "suitable role models" pretty quickly over there, I think.
Link please?

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor....html?page=all

It's all about "awareness" (as if anyone isn't aware of cancer yet), not research. Awareness of cancer or awareness of his Lanceness?
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Old August 24 2012, 08:41 PM   #64
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
And this foundation of his apparently raises oodles of money for cancer research, something like fifty million a year. Hopefully that doesn't take too much of a hit since it's worthwhile.
I heard a woman from the foundation on the radio earlier today. She stated that a cancer diagnosis in the US can often mean financial disaster, even if you have insurance, which is an appalling situation.

The foundation has apparently helped thousands of people - IF this is the case, I would think the good done by Armstrong far outweighs misdeeds such as cheating at a sport.

Is there any proof - not just of the doping, but of the tangible benefits provided by the foundation ? I'm thinking he is may well be guilty as charged of the doping, but am undecided about the foundation...
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Old August 24 2012, 08:46 PM   #65
Shaytan
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Deckerd wrote: View Post
hell he was a hero in France - how often does that happen to anyone who isn't French?
Wrong, we don't like winners.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:51 PM   #66
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is there any proof - not just of the doping, but of the tangible benefits provided by the foundation ?
I'm sure there's proof enough for some, never enough for others - same as the doping.

We went through the same exercise with some major league baseball players a while back.

Shaytan wrote: View Post

Wrong, we don't like winners.
You're saying Lance's stock should rise a bit?

So, anyway - does stripping this guy of his titles mean that they go to whoever was the runner-up or their team? What are the odds that the runners-up weren't doping? The history of the Tour de France is replete with this kind of thing, after all.

Last edited by Admiral Buzzkill; August 24 2012 at 09:02 PM.
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Old August 25 2012, 02:40 AM   #67
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
What are the odds that the runners-up weren't doping?
Spock could tell us in a heartbeat, but they must be---astronomical.
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Old August 25 2012, 02:58 AM   #68
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
What are the odds that the runners-up weren't doping?
Spock could tell us in a heartbeat, but they must be---astronomical.
This is why the whole kerfluffle does strike me as somewhat funny and trivial - we're talking about an apparently terribly corrupt sport. It's fair to assume that a lot of the guys Armstrong beat were just as juiced. Barry Bonds wasn't the only guy in the majors shopping at BALCO, after all.

The sport does, nonetheless, exist only because of the amazing, herculean abilities of individual human beings. Let's face it, most of us could take every drug known to Tour de France cyclists and we wouldn't make it past the first few miles.

Outrage or anger over this, rather than just disappointment, is like making an issue of the "amateur" status of Olympic athletes this late in the day. Captain Renault would doubtless be shocked by these goings-on.
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Old August 25 2012, 03:11 AM   #69
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

The USADA had George Hincapie -- the guy who was Armstrong's domestique through all seven Tour wins -- willing to testify against him. That means a lot. In any event, Armstrong's decision is probably more due to the real Feds now wanting to get a piece of him due to mounting evidence that he was essentially the ringleader of a distribution operation.

The kind of numbers that Tour riders were putting up until just a few years ago are now believed to be physiologically impossible to do without doping. There's a legitimate reason cycling has, quite literally, slowed down since the '90s -- people are climbing Alpe d'Huez about 3-4 minutes slower than a decade ago, and that's an absolute eternity in cycling (and just over one climb) ... it's not an illogical theory that this is due to the sport slowly being cleaned up.

USADA claims it has 38 tests from 2009 - 2010 that show evidence of blood doping, plus the 2001 EPO test. I don't see a problem, here -- Armstrong shouldn't get a free pass just because he got millions of people to wear his bracelets, and with him being such a stubborn guy, I don't think he'd make this decision without believing that they finally had him dead to rights.
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Old August 25 2012, 03:17 AM   #70
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Utter nonsense...he'll always be a 7-time winner of the Tour. The USADA is a farce and keeps breaking it's own rules. I think it might be time to ban the USADA.

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Old August 25 2012, 03:20 AM   #71
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
And this foundation of his apparently raises oodles of money for cancer research, something like fifty million a year. Hopefully that doesn't take too much of a hit since it's worthwhile.
I heard a woman from the foundation on the radio earlier today. She stated that a cancer diagnosis in the US can often mean financial disaster, even if you have insurance, which is an appalling situation.

The foundation has apparently helped thousands of people - IF this is the case, I would think the good done by Armstrong far outweighs misdeeds such as cheating at a sport.

Is there any proof - not just of the doping, but of the tangible benefits provided by the foundation ? I'm thinking he is may well be guilty as charged of the doping, but am undecided about the foundation...
Nope, not a shred of proof, Lance was the most tested athlete in history.
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Old August 25 2012, 03:22 AM   #72
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Honestly I think too much is made in all professional sports when it comes to using performance enhancing drugs/techniques. But against the rules is against the rules.

Needless to say even if he was doping, I think Lance is a great man to look up to. Doping aside he still achieved a lot considering what he had to come back from.
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Old August 25 2012, 05:07 AM   #73
B.J.
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I think getting stripped of his TdF titles will destroy his 'brand'. This man was a global hero; hell he was a hero in France - how often does that happen to anyone who isn't French?
Well, they'll always have Jerry Lewis!
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Old August 25 2012, 06:30 AM   #74
Jono
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Claudia wrote: View Post

But I don't think it's right to put specific samples into storage for them to be tested at a much later date when a test for up until then untestable substances becomes available. There has to be some sort of statute of limitations - and 13 years after the fact is way beyond that IMO. (Or why could Riis keep his Tour victory and even be the coach of teams participating in the tour?)
There is a statute of limitations, it's 8 years. So in theory only his 2004-5 should be in danger of been stripped.
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Old August 25 2012, 08:33 AM   #75
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

I really would like to see the evidence presented that leads to trying to nullify Armstrong's results of his "2nd" career, from Aug 1, 1998 onwards. Until that happens there's a huge questionmark hanging over these proceedings.
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