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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old August 24 2012, 06:38 PM   #46
Gary7
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

I don't know what the financial stakes are in the Tour de France for those companies and organizations who sponsor teams. Does anyone know? Is the system (sponsors, management, doctors, big pharma, etc) corrupt to the point of demanding that athletes participate in deliberate schemes to cheat the system with doping, or do athletes take it upon themselves to dope up?

It's also curious how the USADA dope screening tests are apparently lacking, as a number of athletes have been after the fact for doping. Is the desperation to cheat the system so powerful that any test can be cheated?

Performance enhancing drugs are not unique to cycling. We've seen it revealed in other sports like baseball, football, and soccer. Perhaps the fault lies not with the athletes but with the system that is determined to win at all costs, which demands that athletes run faster, jump higher, and increase endurance beyond what is humanly impossible without pharmaceutical assistance.
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Old August 24 2012, 06:40 PM   #47
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Gary7 wrote: View Post
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Surviving cancer and coming back stronger is not suspicious. What it did was set in motion "extreme motivation."
Nope, considering how destructive chemiotherapy is for the organism, he came back too soon to be true.
The story sounds nice and was made to sound nice.
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Old August 24 2012, 06:53 PM   #48
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Everyone who's asking "if the finger of suspicion has been over him for so long, why is the hammer falling now?" it's because he's stopped contesting it. I suspect he's stopped because he can't win. He's saying it's because he's tired of fighting it but if you have the reputation and adulation he has, you would fight till your last breath to defend it. Goodness knows he has legions of supporters who would back him all the way. He's in a corner and the only way he can escape with a shred of dignity is to say "you have sapped my will to fight, I don't care any more". Considering his motto could be "against all odds" this is an uncharateristically pusillanimous decision. In other words, shyeah right.
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Old August 24 2012, 07:01 PM   #49
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

It's an old story by now: The cyclists and their doctors and labs were on the leading edge of these doping techniques, and the regulators were playing catch-up. The tests were not adequate because they had to be specifically tuned to known substances, and the substances were being changed, modified and newly formulated all the time. With the regulatory tools that existed at the time, the statement "I never failed a test" seems less than compelling.

Where I come down is the same as baseball: If there's a major aspect of your sport that's hidden, shadowy and secretive, there's something wrong. Its purpose is to cheat. There's plenty of evidence that was the state that existed -- and may still exist to some extent -- in professional cycling. There's testimony that Armstrong was involved in that world. And if he wasn't doping -- and I agree the evidence if far from beyond a reasonable doubt standard -- he did noting to correct the situation, either.

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Old August 24 2012, 07:25 PM   #50
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Everyone who's asking "if the finger of suspicion has been over him for so long, why is the hammer falling now?" it's because he's stopped contesting it. I suspect he's stopped because he can't win. He's saying it's because he's tired of fighting it but if you have the reputation and adulation he has, you would fight till your last breath to defend it. Goodness knows he has legions of supporters who would back him all the way. He's in a corner and the only way he can escape with a shred of dignity is to say "you have sapped my will to fight, I don't care any more". Considering his motto could be "against all odds" this is an uncharateristically pusillanimous decision. In other words, shyeah right.
Not only that, if he fights it and loses, he'd have to pay back at least some of his winnings. By walking away, he doesn't take that risk.
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Old August 24 2012, 07:30 PM   #51
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

I don't think this dramatically changes anything. As indicated in this thread, those who already believed he cheated will feel vindicated and those who don't believe he cheated will question the evidence or the process. I think it's probable he cheated, but it's certainly possible that he came back from surviving cancer motivated to win (actually, even if he did cheat, he still came back from cancer motivated to win. I suspect there were plenty of cheaters in this time period who didn't have cancer and failed to win). So it probably doesn't say much.

I'm curious how the taking away titles thing works. If you look in a Sports Alminac under Tour de France, does it list the winner as blank or does it list Armstrong and indicate that he was later stripped?
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Old August 24 2012, 07:34 PM   #52
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

He had hundreds (at minimum) of tests in his entire career and never failed one? Yeh what a cheat. The last time I chekced hearsay was not enough to convict anyone.
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Old August 24 2012, 07:36 PM   #53
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I think it's probable he cheated, but it's certainly possible that he came back from surviving cancer motivated to win (actually, even if he did cheat, he still came back from cancer motivated to win. I suspect there were plenty of cheaters in this time period who didn't have cancer and failed to win). So it probably doesn't say much.
Jon Vaughters, a guy who would know, recently answered the question: "is it possible to say at least if USPS was doping during the domination they were at least on a level playing field?" with "I could not go along with that theory. No."

I think that's all that needs to be said about this.

The idea that Armstrong trained harder or better than anyone else is ridiculous. Cycling is an old sport, there's no revolutionary sports science there.
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Old August 24 2012, 07:44 PM   #54
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Jax wrote: View Post
He had hundreds (at minimum) of tests in his entire career and never failed one? Yeh what a cheat. The last time I chekced hearsay was not enough to convict anyone.
There are so many things that aren't or weren't detectable by normal doping tests to make this statement meaningless. (the bio-passport is better, but only provides indirect evidence, which you would call "hearsay" if it relates to an athlete you like).

Also: 500 tests? Bullshit.

And keep this in mind:
“I was tested 200 times during my career, and 100 times I had drugs in my body,” he said, according to the New York Times. “I was caught, but 99 other times, I wasn’t. Riders think they can get away with doping because most of the time they do. Even if there is a new test for blood doping, I’m not even sure it will scare riders into stopping. The problem is just that bad.”
(Bernhard Kohl)
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Old August 24 2012, 08:01 PM   #55
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I don't think this dramatically changes anything. As indicated in this thread, those who already believed he cheated will feel vindicated and those who don't believe he cheated will question the evidence or the process.
Pretty much, yeah. It'll be interesting to see for how long this damages his "brand," if much at all.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:03 PM   #56
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

I think getting stripped of his TdF titles will destroy his 'brand'. This man was a global hero; hell he was a hero in France - how often does that happen to anyone who isn't French?
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Old August 24 2012, 08:16 PM   #57
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Well, as Alidar suggested people tend to choose their sides and hang on to what they're already inclined to believe. Didn't someone recently post links around here to an article discussing the ineffectiveness of factual argument in changing people's long-held beliefs and opinions?

But yeah, he's probably toast in France. There's that.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:21 PM   #58
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

I don't think it's that funny. For years in the late 90's I was reading about people who were totally inspired by this man and his battle against cancer.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:25 PM   #59
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

The foundation was always bogus as well, just a vehicle to increase his PR value.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:26 PM   #60
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Re: Armstrong stripped of 7 TdF titles

Deckerd wrote: View Post
For years in the late 90's I was reading about people who were totally inspired by this man and his battle against cancer.
And this foundation of his apparently raises oodles of money for cancer care and education, something like fifty million a year. Hopefully that doesn't take too much of a hit since it's worthwhile. Apparently Nike is sticking with him and it, for now - but then, they're running out of "suitable role models" pretty quickly over there, I think.

“We are saddened that Lance Armstrong may no longer be able to participate in certain competitions and his titles appear to be impacted,” Nike spokeswoman Mary Remuzzi said in an emailed statement. ”Lance has stated his innocence and has been unwavering on this position. Nike plans to continue to support Lance and the Lance Armstrong Foundation, a foundation that Lance created to serve cancer survivors.”

Armstrong has been a Nike athlete since 1996. Nike shares recently rose 1.7% to $97.07. The stock is roughly flat this year.
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Last edited by Admiral Buzzkill; August 24 2012 at 08:40 PM. Reason: corrected characterization of Livestrong
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