Why is Nemesis hated so much?

[CommanderRaytas]

Another thing that didn't make any sense. Case in point, right?

[teacake]

btw I want to add I don't hate Nemesis. I've watched it about 5 times and I'll probably watch it 5 more times. It's just not a very good movie and it does some annoying things to Our Heroes. Killing Data, giving us B4, making Picard look weird and senile, a rape scene which was not about bringing the violence and drama up to some reality level but about a sleazy adolescent's rape fantasy and of course marrying Troi to that dolt.

[lurok]

teacake wrote:

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...and of course marrying Troi to that dolt.

But...but...then we wouldn't have the connubial bliss that is Titan

[teacake]

I've never been one for romance. But that's not why I thought it a crime

[AllStarEntprise]

Romulus Prime wrote:

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Let's see, a race of people who are known to exact hard-core vengeance upon anyone whom they feel betrayed them just lost their entire effing planet, and the particular group whom we're focusing on blame Spock for not helping them in time.

Romulans are vengeful....check
Their homeworld is destroyed...check
The guy who was supposedly going to help prevent this failed...check
Nero (and his group of Romulans) feels betrayed and wants vengeance on the person they are displacing on, thus plan to equalize the loss in accordance with their view of exacting revenge...


....check.

Putting all that aside, NuTrek is a popcorn flick/reboot that's not trying to be 100% in line with what came before. The same excuse cannot be said of Nemesis.

Yeah because Star Trek XI couldn't have worked with any other Star Trek race. Any race had they lost there planet and families would be aggrieved and angry. Star Trek XI could've worked just as well with the Klingons or Cardassians or some other new race. Nothing in Star Trek XI in the motives of the villains was exclusively to the Romulans. The destruction of Vulcan you could argue that there was a connection there but there isn't as clear a connection to the Romulans and Vulcans as related races for the audiences to really get involved like we the fans. If Spock had promised to save Kronos (Klingon home planet i forget the spelling) and failed, the Klingons would've sought revenge on his planet first also.

I still don't understand why the Star Trek XI Romulans sport Darth Maul facial tattoos, but given that deleted scenes of Klingons involved them wearing Darth Vader like masks I surmise JJ thought it would cool to blend traditional Trek races with Star Wars. At least the NEM Romulans were keeping it real, bowl cuts and all.

[AllStarEntprise]

You guys have got to be kidding me. NEM is not about the Romulans. I just rewatched the film and counted how much time they are physically on screen. 8 minutes and 2 seconds. A movie that has an hour and 56 minute run time ( one hour and 49 minutes if you don't include the credits), and we a debating how out of character a race of people who were minor characters to the whole story of NEM.

Shinzon's Romulan collaborators you can count on one hand. 5 Romulans helped him overthrow the senate. While it was Commander Suran had secured the loyalty of the Romulan Fleet (which was off planet during NEM), Suran was the mediator to the fleet and Shinzon. Shinzon propped himself up on the throne and declared himself Praetor, it doesn't mean the Romulans had pledged fealty to him. In fact assassination and betrayal is common thing on Romulus.

I don't understand this whole thing with the Romulans being "so out of character". Dontra rallying Suran to help fight Shinzon, I interpret as the Romulans whole twisted sense of logic. While not the most honorable race, they aren't monstrous enough to exterminate an entire race of people. They are conquers. They are not an evil race. In NEM i found nothing so egregious by their portrayal to warrant such hate. I surmise there is some expectation that all Romulans have to be cold, calculating, and super intelligent villains who are always hiding their true motives. When in reality they are on par with humans in their development and technology. Cultures are different but as TNG The Chase showed, deep down they are similar to humans. The novel of NEM conveyed a sense that while the Federation and Romulans have been at odds, they don't instinctively hate each other. There is a scene in the book where Romulan medical teams help Doctor Crusher with the wounded on board the Enterprise. A female Romulan doctor saves Worf's life after he had suffered terrible disruptor burns to the chest.

The claims of xenophobia are bs also. Maybe you all have forgotten TNG Birthright where a Romulans had willingly lived with and started families with Klingons captured from camp Khitomer, or TNG Face of The Enemy where a human who had lived on Romulus for 20 years and had no trouble from the Romulan government or the Tal Shiar for being human. Shinzon was a proven warrior and had a plan to topple the Federation. He found Romulans who was support his plan and set out to execute it. Although he didn't seem to be in much of a hurry, and you'll note the dissatisfaction of Commander Suran at Shinzon's delay in action.

The hope for Trek in the end one day all races should be united. While NEM is more of an action peace, these ideals were in John Logan's screenplay. Due to focus of the director and length of time these were cut.

[Romulus Prime]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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Yeah because Star Trek XI couldn't have worked with any other Star Trek race. Any race had they lost there planet and families would be aggrieved and angry. Star Trek XI could've worked just as well with the Klingons or Cardassians or some other new race. Nothing in Star Trek XI in the motives of the villains was exclusively to the Romulans. The destruction of Vulcan you could argue that there was a connection there but there isn't as clear a connection to the Romulans and Vulcans as related races for the audiences to really get involved like we the fans.

Exactly. Thanks for saving me some time. Klingons where already used similarly in this capacity in ST:VI with the destruction of their moon + are far too popular to risk destroying their homeworld. And them people would say "ugh, Klingons again?"

Cardassians? Again, as you said, there's no connection. The whole point seems to be "eye for an eye" + an OMG WTF?! factor. But it's set up in a way that the entire Vulcanoid species has a chance in either universe.

If Spock had promised to save Kronos (Klingon home planet i forget the spelling) and failed, the Klingons would've sought revenge on his planet first also.

Klingons again? See above.

I still don't understand why the Star Trek XI Romulans sport Darth Maul facial tattoos,

I don't either, except for the fact it was a way to differentiate them from Vulcans for the non-Trek audience.

At least the NEM Romulans were keeping it real, bowl cuts and all.

You mean what they didn't have in TOS?

You guys have got to be kidding me. NEM is not about the Romulans. I just rewatched the film and counted how much...

And yet it was marketed as a movie which would feature the Romulans as antagonists. Again, part of the problem.

[BillJ]

Romulus Prime wrote:

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And yet it was marketed as a movie which would feature the Romulans as antagonists. Again, part of the problem.

A problem for you. And you might want to stop with the roll eyes after every post, it's considered rude. People are going to disagree with you, might as well get use to it.

The biggest problem is they talk about this awesome villain who took control of the Romulan Empire. Then we get Forrest Gump.

[teacake]

He was a sleazy little shit.

[Romulus Prime]

BillJ wrote:

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A problem for you.

A problem for the movie. It's failure on so many levels did not hinge on whether or not I approved of it or not.

And you might want to stop with the roll eyes after every post, it's considered rude. People are going to disagree with you, might as well get use to it.

Now apply that to the eye roll.

You're quite right, BTW, and since this is a public message board/discussion forum, people are often going to keep posting their opinions. That doesn't just mean ME, it means everyone. It's not my place or anyone else to imply that contributing to this thread should cease and desist in any capacity. As much as I despise this movie is as much as anyone can like it, and I'm fine with that, but when people chose to discuss their opinions about it, it's gonna end up similarly to this thread.

The biggest problem is they talk about this awesome villain who took control of the Romulan Empire. Then we get Forrest Gump.

Agreed.

[Romulus Prime]

teacake wrote:

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He was a sleazy little shit.

QFT

[CommanderRaytas]

teacake wrote:

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He was a sleazy little shit.

Not to mention schizophrenic. Nothing he did made any sense whatsoever. That guy lived in a different reality and left audiences all over scratching their heads.

[King Daniel]

Of course Shinzon was crazy - a lifetime of abuse and finding out you're just a faulty, unwanted copy of a great human who lived a privileged life will do that.

Were Hitler's motivations and reasons for wanting to exterminate the Jews any more rational than Shinzon wanting to wipe out humanity and kill Picard to validate his own existence? Hell no. That's how real life crazy works.

[teacake]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Of course Shinzon was crazy - a lifetime of abuse and finding out you're just a faulty, unwanted copy of a great human who lived a privileged life will do that.

Were Hitler's motivations and reasons for wanting to exterminate the Jews any more rational than Shinzon wanting to wipe out humanity and kill Picard to validate his own existence? Hell no. That's how real life crazy works.

They were both shits.

[CommanderRaytas]

teacake wrote:

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They were both shits.

Oh so true.

But to Hitler, his motivations made sense because of a number of reasons (the Jew thing being part of a general anti-semitic sentiment going 'round the world). Smart people could predict basically everything he did based on his 1920s book Mein Kampf, and that was almost a decade before he was elected chancellor. It's really all in the book: anti-semitism, his reasoning as to why the German Empire should expand to the East, the hatred against communism (also widely spread during those days), the resentment against the French....he virtually explained why he did all those things before they even happened. Shinzon wouldn't be able to explain his motivations if his life depended on it.

His life did depend on it, and still his actions made zero sense.

Of course Hitler was a crazy shit, but the enemies were the enemies and he didn't change his mind in the middle of things. If you compare him to Shinzon, it's like Hitler mid-war decided that the Austrians (his country of origin) were the enemy and set off to gas all of them.

So yeah, two genocidal sons of bitches, but not quite the same level of schizophrenic. Real-life villains usually act logically from their own perspective. Hitler was consistent in his insanity. Shinzon is not.