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Old August 21 2012, 07:33 PM   #76
Edit_XYZ
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Tying cardassia's fate on whether it was carved up/occupied by the victors or not is credible.

But, as regards the klingons and romulans:
As for the other POV, that of the victors... Klingons probably wouldn't be all that hot about weakening their enemy beyond a certain point. They prefer strong opponents, especially when those have been decisively defeated (compare to the idolization of Rommel or Napoleon in the British tradition). From which it follows that Romulans would love to give Klingons exactly what they want! And the UFP would want to see Cardassia rise again for humanitarian reasons. With such agendas at play, it is far from implausible that everybody would get way more than they bargained for.
Both klingons and romulans have empires. They use conquered territory for resources, and, when the native population is 'ready', for manpower.
The klingon/romulan conquered cardassian territory would be just that - conquered, under the conqueror's boot. No glorious freedom fighter defeating Godzilla with a paper cutter.

The notion that klingons would want to keep cardassians strong for, essentially, sport, would come at the cost of making the klingons a copy-cat of a really stupid bond villain.
The idolization of Rommel or Napoleon had no relevance on keeping Germany or France strong; if this happened, it was for completely different reasons (that actually made sense, pragmatically).

The romulans wanting to resurrect an enemy - their enemy - just so they can annoy the klingons, would come at the same price of making the romulans idiotic cardboard characters.

One would rightly wonder how did the klingons or romulans ever managed to create an empire with such thinking.

The federation could try to make their portion of cardassian territory 'free' for humanitarian reasons.
And, in the process, incur heavy protests from the klingons and romulans - who would be opposed to the existence of so relatively strong a cardassian state.
Potential for conflict abounds.
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Old August 21 2012, 07:47 PM   #77
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

The idolization of Rommel or Napoleon had no relevance on keeping Germany or France strong
Indeed, in both cases it took place after strength had been denied the respective foes. But like you yourself emphasize, it's not the defeated that gets to decide whether to rebound or not, it's the victor and all those little quirks of his that have little or nothing directly to do with the struggle at hand. Klingon mindset does seem to call for playing up the strength of the foe, as the heart of fighting lies in the ability to tell stories about it. At the time of TNG, actual physical spoils of war seem to play little role for the Empire: it's not as if they would really need a Cardassian mining world or prize fleet for anything much.

Indeed, in "Way of the Warrior", it seems Gowron goes to war with the principal goals of a) looking good and b) getting as many Klingons as possible killed - at least from the ranks of his domestic opponents. That he later digs in does not appear to reflect any physical demands of the empire: what Klingons do with their newly annexed territory seems to be random terrorizing of Cardassia, as in "Return to Grace" and "Rules of Engagement", rather than exploiting of resources already gained.

The romulans wanting to resurrect an enemy - their enemy - just so they can annoy the klingons, would come at the same price of making the romulans idiotic cardboard characters.
How so? That's straight from the real world: whenever the big wars in Europe seemed to be leading to a decisive victory, somebody on the winning side would decide to disrupt the process in order to restore the balance and deny his allies the potential boost to their hegemony intentions.

Remember that while Klingons had border quarrels with Cardassia (at Betreka), Romulans supposedly had none. Annexation of Cardassian worlds would in all likelihood give the Romulans isolated bubbles of territory outside the main body of the Star Empire - a terrifying prospect for a people who have been huddling inside a Neutral Zone for more than a generation (which for Vulcanoids is pretty damn long!).

Potential for conflict abounds.
Certainly so. And since the actual sides in the conflict would be the strong victors, the rise of Cardassia would be largely irrelevant in the threat sense - it would be merely a means for the true players in achieving their goals in this conflict.

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Old August 21 2012, 08:00 PM   #78
Edit_XYZ
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Timo

The americans wanted to keep Germany strong as part of their plan to stop communism spreading.
The monarchies installed an ally in France as part of ensuring monarchy will remain stable in Europe and its colonies. This was no idle talk - they put behind it the muscle to hold it for a century.
Napoleon/Rommel worship had nothing to do with this. Nada. Zilch. Nor 'for sport' or 'just to annoy x or y'.

During/after the big wars in Europe, the victors had pragmatic reasons for keeping a defeated foe strong.
And none of these even approached the cardboard idiocy of 'for sport' or 'just to annoy someone'.


Gowron's bravado in 'way of the warrior' was facade - or rather, an instrument to awaken nationalistic feeling, often used by human dictators, as well; Gowron wanted to use the tried and tested conquest (to return to the old ways) for amassing new strength (in resources, political from the houses enriched with the new gains, etc).
After the conquest, klingon convoys - civilian/commercial - were travelling throughout cardassian occupied space.
And the klingons were quite into keeping the cardassians in line and into keeping federation influence out of the zone (arguably, even more zealous than necessary) - the opposite of making the conquered cardassians strong, 'for sport'.

You could, of course, maintain your interpretation - the price (besides an overcomplicated explanation to fit it with canon facts), as said, is to make the klingons cardboard fools, and to make the building of the klingon empire a gigantic miracle.


As for the romulans - they just had a war with cardassians; and now occupy cardassian territory.
And they're really paranoid; they are supposed to underestimate, as opposed to overestimate the danger from racist, 'manifest destiny' cardassians?

Not that you need to be paranoid in order to see the necessity of keeping the conquered - by you - cardassians in line.
You need to be a cardboard idiot not to see it, as an empire.

And since the actual sides in the conflict would be the strong victors, the rise of Cardassia would be largely irrelevant in the threat sense - it would be merely a means for the true players in achieving their goals in this conflict.
Cardassian territory/etc IS the 'true goals'.
Spoils of war.
Keeping it under control will NOT be ignored. As already said, the opposite is likely; the winners will quarrel to keep it under TIGHTER control.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; August 21 2012 at 10:08 PM.
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Old August 22 2012, 05:56 AM   #79
Drago-Kazov
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Edit posted:
Really?
When did they, outside fiction?

Only when TPTB WANTED to retreat - not due to terrorism, but due to other factors.
The Russians from Afghanistan to give you a recent example.

They can have all the experience and minds they want.
An army, they can't have - not with a klingon/romulan force supervising the cardassian territory resources/said minds/periodically squashing any cardassian guerillas, etc, etc.
They can build one up, theamericans were in a similar situation with veterans of the french wars and indian wars providing expertise to their army.

It's nice to believe that no one is truly defeated, that there are always second chances, etc. But such feel-good ideas are always proved false by a mere history book.
There is nothing feel good about the afghans and their backward ways but they did beat plenty of occupiers

[And what was the reason for Britain's departure?
You actually think indigenous terrorism did it? As opposed to events WAY above such level?
Multiple wars, rebellions and peace movements had been a large contributing factor.
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Old August 22 2012, 06:10 AM   #80
Edit_XYZ
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

The afgans - they did not lead to the retreat of the URSS. After all the guerilla war - heavily helped by american weaponry - the URSS was still there, still dominant.
The URSS retreated because it was in meldown due to internal reasons. Afgans - minor factor, at best.

The British - much like all europeans - retreated because of the zeitgeist, helped by the fact that maintaining a colonial empire was no longer profitable enough to be worth the trouble - due to economic, commercial reasons. And they were exhausted by WW2. Rebellions, etc - minor factors, at best.

America was never conquered territory, treated as such.
Except for the indians. I'm still waiting for their glorious liberation.
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Old August 22 2012, 07:41 AM   #81
Timo
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

And none of these even approached the cardboard idiocy of 'for sport' or 'just to annoy someone'.
Oh, don't take me too literally. "To annoy someone" is a valid way of describing why the US wanted a strong postwar Germany in Europe, even if a bit flippant. It's exactly the sort of game the Romulans would play. And "for sport" is what conquerors do for valid strategic reasons: they need to keep giving their forces manageable "baptisms of fire" against foes of optimal strength before tackling their "real" opponents, and Klingons and Germans have realized this equally well.

Cardassian territory/etc IS the 'true goals'. Spoils of war.
This does not appear realistic at all. Cardassia is the only expansionist power in Trek described as having a profit motive, a need for land. The other powers do just fine without having to worry about new worlds and civilizations. France had a massively expansionist empire a hundred years ago, yet no desire to acquire any land in Europe; even Nazi Germany lacked plans for exploiting the conquered areas, beyond the single vital commodity of oil, and was interested in conquest only for the purpose of denying its enemies the strength inherent in the land. As already mentioned, this is a "fashion" thing, something empires sometimes do and at other times do not. We have no objective or a priori reason to assume either of these options for the TNG empires, but we can witness them in action and then decide.

Opportunist exploitation of resources is common in Trek: many a plotline revolves around a "secret slave mine", for example. Yet e.g. the Klingon actions in the conquered areas before the war wasn't described as resources extraction: rather, it was indicated that the Klingons pumped resources in, in order to fortify their holdings.

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Old August 23 2012, 09:04 AM   #82
CommanderRaytas
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Timo wrote: View Post
...FWIW, my native Finland was the only losing nation to actually pay its WWII reparations. Rather than being a cause for resentment and anger, it's just about the only thing we remember the victors fondly for: the national myth tells that by producing stuff for the USSR, we not only re-established but actually for the first time established an industrial base that subsequently gave us true international competitiveness. (It's mostly bollocks, of course, but it sounds good.)

Cardassia might remain a proud nation even when deprived of colonial holdings, as long as they have things to remain proud of. And they have an excellent and experienced propaganda machine to create such things, out of whole cloth if need be... (Or out of tatters, as it rather may be.)

Timo Saloniemi
First, I did not know this about Finland! Wow, unfair.

Second, I actually agree with you on the Cardassia thing. Taking some colonies away is one thing, stripping them of resources and breaking up their fleet, or dividing their entire territory (as has been suggested), are quite different matters.
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Old August 23 2012, 09:39 AM   #83
MacLeod
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Leaving Cardassia with it's colonies is one thing, but leaving them with conquered worlds is another, where they had subjucated the people like they did with Bajor is another.
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Old August 23 2012, 02:37 PM   #84
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

I think we all agree on that one.
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Old August 24 2012, 08:59 AM   #85
Timo
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

First, I did not know this about Finland! Wow, unfair.
The reason is pretty simple: since Finland wasn't on the route to Berlin, Stalin never got around to conquering us in full on his way there. Yet we were clearly in his sphere of influence, not the west's, so we couldn't get Marshall aid or comparable western pardons, yet OTOH weren't actually a fixture of the east block so Stalin had no incentive to pardon us, either. So, not being in the forefront of the Cold War had its downsides, too!

The Cardassian Union may feature similar stories. Before the war, it appeared to have quite a few allies or satellites in the "neutral" space around Bajor. During the war several parties joined fates with the Dominion; even if none of Cardassia's allies (Xepolites, Kressari, perhaps Klaestron) was explicitly mentioned, they could have been part of Dukat's wartime empire - and might have paid for it later on, but with less than their independence.

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