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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old August 23 2012, 11:08 PM   #151
Romulus Prime
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
The Roman empire never had non-HUMAN rulers at any point.

I can't believe you typed that...
From Julius Caesar to Romulus Augustulus to Thomas Palaiologos, you name me one Roman Emperor, co-Emperor or heir of either the whole empire, or of the Western/Eastern periods who were of a different species other than human.



Shinzon does not gain control of the Romulan Empire without the help of Romulans. You can do all the backwards somersaults you want to work around it. It simply doesn't happen.
The only thing backwards here is the retcon of Logan for his Remans and clones. The only reason it happens at all is due to a piss-poor story with weak and (supposedly) scary-looking bad guys + a melting clone of kid-Picard.


Riker even says in the movie that the praetors power has always been the Romulan fleet. Shinzon does not take control without the support of the fleet.
Riiight, the xenophobic Romulan military not only trusts slaves with guns, but also a clone of a non-Romulan that exposes their plot to infiltrate the Federation. Riker can say whatever he wants in a movie full of silly mistakes and unbelievable situations. It doesn't change the fact the Romulan military and Tal Shiar would go apeshit at even a hint that a clone was planning to take over their Empire. The movie itself even proves this as a highly probable scenario by the fact that someone who backed this guy - DONATRA - decides that Shinzon isn't someone worth any level of trust or loyalty.

Wow, a Romulan who can figure out that a clone of an alien who leads a slave race probably isn't a good candidate as leader of the Romulan Empire. Crazy talk, man! Who'd of thought of that?




Early in the film, they're on the right track. They paint this image of Shinzon being this cunning, cold warrior who takes control of the Empire. But they present us a pimply nerd who is infatuated with Troi's hair and wants to have tea with the brother who had a better life than he did.

Shinzon rising to power isn't the problem, it's the fact that the character we see doesn't match the character we are told about.
His laughable rise to power is part of the problem. Anyone who "get's" the Romulans and understands what makes them unique on a psychological level can see that. If you don't, that's understandable - not everyone delves into the inner workings of every Trek race.

In contrast, the Romulans have always been my favorite Trek race, mostly because I "get" why they are xenophobic and arrogant about their place in the universe. Not every Romulan is the same as the rest, but most have a certain behavior which they follow. In order to understand what makes them different, IMO, the individuals who define them best are the Commander from The Enterprise Incident, Commander Teibok, Sub Commander Taris, Ambassador Nanclus, Centurian Bochra, Admiral Jerok, Commander Tomalak, Senator Pardek, Sub-Commander Selok/Ambassador T'Pel, Commander Sela, Mirok, Varel and Parem from The Next Phase, Commander Sirol, Senator Letant, Nero, hell - even the damn soup lady in Unification.

But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

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Old August 24 2012, 12:06 AM   #152
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

I didn't hate it. I just thought it was marginal. Maybe even marginal at best. *Shrugs*
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Old August 24 2012, 12:12 AM   #153
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

I myself don't hate Nemesis, it's so so, there's stuff I liked like the wedding, the combat bits, the cute Romulan girl, and so on. The dune buggy was a bit silly, though, but I do like seeing Picard having some fun and with a shit eating grin for a change. B4 sort of cheaped Data's demise, though.
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Old August 24 2012, 12:31 AM   #154
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

After reading through the posts on this and other NEM topics, I am beginning to feel that detractors of the film have set their standards unbelievably high for a popcorn movie. Is that what we the fans have become? A bunch of high standard otaku who troll Trek by nitpicking every single thing we find wrong about a 2 hour long movie. Citing how often it breaks continuity when shows like DS9, VOY and ENT have more gaping plotholes but no one flames them on excess. NEM is not bad like INS, which in fact is the film everyone of the cast members of TNG hate.
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Old August 24 2012, 01:04 AM   #155
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
From Julius Caesar to Romulus Augustulus to Thomas Palaiologos, you name me one Roman Emperor, co-Emperor or heir of either the whole empire, or of the Western/Eastern periods who were of a different species other than human.
Just wow.



But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
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Old August 24 2012, 03:20 AM   #156
Romulus Prime
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
From Julius Caesar to Romulus Augustulus to Thomas Palaiologos, you name me one Roman Emperor, co-Emperor or heir of either the whole empire, or of the Western/Eastern periods who were of a different species other than human.
Just wow.
Waiting for a reply again. Do you want me to list every Roman emperor, or what?


But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
I'm not patronizing anyone, I'm telling you about one episode which did a fine job of summarizing the Romulan psyche and how the majority of Romulans have been consistently portrayed in Star Trek, from Balance of Terror onward.

You say Nemesis is another interpretation - exactly. I totally agree with you. Like I said, that's part of the problem with this movie.

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Old August 24 2012, 04:04 AM   #157
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
Yes different writers = different interpretations. Just like the Romulans of Star Trek XI possess none of the traits they do in past series' or movies. They are generic bad guy villains but you don't criticize them for being inaccurate to canon for their characterization.

NEM i give a pass on this because the film isn't about them nor are there that many of them. It's more about John Logan's creative brainchildren the Remans.
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Old August 24 2012, 04:41 AM   #158
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
From Julius Caesar to Romulus Augustulus to Thomas Palaiologos, you name me one Roman Emperor, co-Emperor or heir of either the whole empire, or of the Western/Eastern periods who were of a different species other than human.
Just wow.
Waiting for a reply again. Do you want me to list every Roman emperor, or what?


But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
I'm not patronizing anyone, I'm telling you about one episode which did a fine job of summarizing the Romulan psyche and how the majority of Romulans have been consistently portrayed in Star Trek, from Balance of Terror onward.

You say Nemesis is another interpretation - exactly. I totally agree with you. Like I said, that's part of the problem with this movie.

I agree. As someone who finds Romulans fascinating, I think they're portrayed extremely well in The Next Generation, given what we learned about them from their portrayal in The Original Series. They are distrustful of outsiders, and are extremely proud of their heritage, traits that they display throughout their appearances across multiple television series.

Yet, none of these traits are displayed in Nemesis, at least not in a way that makes sense. Are all Romulans alike? No, but it's reasonable to expect them to behave with certain parameters, just as it's reasonable expect any one of us to behave a certain way as human beings. The Romulans of Nemesis are decidedly not distrustful, and in fact put their trust in the wrong person when they support Shinzon's assassination of the Imperial Senate. Why?

Donatra eventually realizes her mistake and aids the Enterprise crew in their attempts to stop Shinzon. Her comments to Picard about Shinzon's coup being "an internal matter of the Empire," may be interpreted as Romulan pride, but they could just as easily be construed as a simple apology for the misfortune that's befallen the Enterprise. Her overtures to Picard near the film's conclusion are also out of character for the Romulan people.

"You've made a friend in the Romulan Empire today, Captain, hopefully the first of many."

Again, why? Granted, the Romulan Commander seen in "The Chase" expressed his hope that Romulus and Earth would eventually stand together in peace, but he was willing to only go so far in voicing these feelings aloud. Donatra's comments seem over the top by comparison. It's possible that her views are a reflection of a younger generation of Romulan citizens- a group influenced in part by Ambassador Spock's Unification movement- but surely an Empire that works so diligently to avoid dissent of any kind would avoid placing such an individual in a position- ship's captain, no less- where she could influence others and create ripples of disloyalty.

I've recently started reading Taking Wing, the first novel of the Titan series, and without giving away valuable spoiler information, I'm much happier with the way that the Romulans are portrayed. Had they been cast in a similar light during Nemesis, it's possible the reception of this film would have been better than it was.
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Old August 24 2012, 04:42 AM   #159
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
Yes different writers = different interpretations. Just like the Romulans of Star Trek XI possess none of the traits they do in past series' or movies. They are generic bad guy villains but you don't criticize them for being inaccurate to canon for their characterization.

NEM i give a pass on this because the film isn't about them nor are there that many of them. It's more about John Logan's creative brainchildren the Remans.
Yea, it's odd folks praise all the JJ Trek stuff, including the Romulans, which felt nothing like Romulans I am familiar with, but rip the Nemesis ones.
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Old August 24 2012, 04:52 AM   #160
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Even Galaxy Quest was a better Star Trek film than Nemesis.
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Old August 24 2012, 04:56 AM   #161
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

The Castellan wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
Yes different writers = different interpretations. Just like the Romulans of Star Trek XI possess none of the traits they do in past series' or movies. They are generic bad guy villains but you don't criticize them for being inaccurate to canon for their characterization.

NEM i give a pass on this because the film isn't about them nor are there that many of them. It's more about John Logan's creative brainchildren the Remans.
Yea, it's odd folks praise all the JJ Trek stuff, including the Romulans, which felt nothing like Romulans I am familiar with, but rip the Nemesis ones.
For what it's worth, I don't like nuTrek's portrayal the of the Romulans at all, but I do understand why some may be willing to overlook their flaws more than they are with the Romulans portrayed in Nemesis.

nuTrek is an entirely different interpretation and presentation of Star Trek. It's nothing like Roddenberry's Trek. It's not even comparable to Berman's Trek. Therefore, the various characters and alien races featured in nuTrek are subject to their creator's unique interpretation. People aren't bothered by nuRomulans because they're nuRomulans. As long as their portrayal in nuTrek remains consistent, there won't be much of a fuss about them.
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Old August 24 2012, 07:02 AM   #162
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

The Castellan wrote: View Post
...it's odd folks praise all the JJ Trek stuff, including the Romulans, which felt nothing like Romulans I am familiar with, but rip the Nemesis ones.
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Yes different writers = different interpretations. Just like the Romulans of Star Trek XI possess none of the traits they do in past series' or movies. They are generic bad guy villains but you don't criticize them for being inaccurate to canon for their characterization.
Let's see, a race of people who are known to exact hard-core vengeance upon anyone whom they feel betrayed them just lost their entire effing planet, and the particular group whom we're focusing on blame Spock for not helping them in time.

Romulans are vengeful....check
Their homeworld is destroyed...check
The guy who was supposedly going to help prevent this failed...check
Nero (and his group of Romulans) feels betrayed and wants vengeance on the person they are displacing on, thus plan to equalize the loss in accordance with their view of exacting revenge...


....check.

Putting all that aside, NuTrek is a popcorn flick/reboot that's not trying to be 100% in line with what came before. The same excuse cannot be said of Nemesis.


NEM i give a pass on this because the film isn't about them nor are there that many of them. It's more about John Logan's creative brainchildren the Remans.
Both of which were part of the problem. FYI - That "new" Romulan symbol must have been bad marketing on the part of the studio then, right? I mean, if it's what you say and the movie wasn't about the Romulans, then using their symbol as part of the marketing ploy was essentially false advertizing.
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Old August 24 2012, 07:13 AM   #163
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Admiral_Sisko wrote: View Post
I agree. As someone who finds Romulans fascinating, I think they're portrayed extremely well in The Next Generation, given what we learned about them from their portrayal in The Original Series. They are distrustful of outsiders, and are extremely proud of their heritage, traits that they display throughout their appearances across multiple television series.

Yet, none of these traits are displayed in Nemesis, at least not in a way that makes sense. Are all Romulans alike? No, but it's reasonable to expect them to behave with certain parameters, just as it's reasonable expect any one of us to behave a certain way as human beings. The Romulans of Nemesis are decidedly not distrustful, and in fact put their trust in the wrong person when they support Shinzon's assassination of the Imperial Senate. Why?

Donatra eventually realizes her mistake and aids the Enterprise crew in their attempts to stop Shinzon. Her comments to Picard about Shinzon's coup being "an internal matter of the Empire," may be interpreted as Romulan pride, but they could just as easily be construed as a simple apology for the misfortune that's befallen the Enterprise. Her overtures to Picard near the film's conclusion are also out of character for the Romulan people.

"You've made a friend in the Romulan Empire today, Captain, hopefully the first of many."


Again, why?
Granted, the Romulan Commander seen in "The Chase" expressed his hope that Romulus and Earth would eventually stand together in peace, but he was willing to only go so far in voicing these feelings aloud. Donatra's comments seem over the top by comparison. It's possible that her views are a reflection of a younger generation of Romulan citizens- a group influenced in part by Ambassador Spock's Unification movement- but surely an Empire that works so diligently to avoid dissent of any kind would avoid placing such an individual in a position- ship's captain, no less- where she could influence others and create ripples of disloyalty.
Exactly.

That's one of the other problems - Donatra was backing a guy who was supposed to take the (weakened post-Dominion War) Romulan Empire to war with the Feds, then she makes a complete 180 and even cozies up to Picard...gimmie an effing break. It's just silly. The very reason the pro-Nemesis camp claims Romulans backed Shinzon is because they wanted war with the Feds. Donatra was one of them. But then she's like:

"Hey Picard, about this clone of you who I backed and made Preator because he was gonna take out you and the Feds? I've now changed my mind about him, and BTW, let's be friends, m'kay?"

Yeah, no.

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Old August 24 2012, 08:07 AM   #164
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Honestly, regardless of whether the portrayal of the Romulans in particular was bad (and I personally believe that it was), no-one's decisions in that film make any sense whatsover. That's a general problem with NEM. You might be particularly bugged by the fact that the Rommies helped the aforementioned pimply nerd become praetor, which is your right, but I think that everyone was portrayed like idiots....they're all over the place. This is not limited to the Rommies.

Which is the reason I believe that NEM is not a good film.

Popcorn cinema is one thing, but stuff has to even marginally make sense...and in NEM, it doesn't, at least to me. STXI made sense to me, which is why I like it much better. In the end, it is a matter of opinion.
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Old August 24 2012, 09:16 AM   #165
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Clones, it failed right there. And you got TWO major characters with clones!
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