Why is Nemesis hated so much?

[Jeyl]

ChristopherPike wrote:

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I can see how filmmakers considered it essential to what plays out later on.

Oh, we couldn't just have Troi be able to detect whether or not the Viceroy was telepathic the moment they met on the Scimitar? We had to resort to two people mentally raping her instead. There are other ways this could have been handled without resorting to the most foul act a movie villain (In this case Villains) could inflict. This is Star Trek for cripes' sake.

[BillJ]

Jeyl wrote:

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Oh, we couldn't just have Troi be able to detect whether or not the Viceroy was telepathic the moment they met on the Scimitar? We had to resort to two people mentally raping her instead. There are other ways this could have been handled without resorting to the most foul act a movie villain (In this case Villains) could inflict. This is Star Trek for cripes' sake.

You know this isn't Disney, it's suppose to be grown-up sci-fi drama.

How many times did Troi get taken advantage of during the series run?

[Romulus Prime]

BillJ wrote:

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Since Shinzon had built alliances within both the Romulan Senate and military...

Ridiculous on this level alone...oh wait, it's only half ridiculous since he murdered the Senate.

it's likely he built them within the Tal'Shiar as well.

You don't know too much about Romulans I take it? There general mistrust of others is the norm for the majority. The MO of the Tal Shiar is that x10, expecting it as a given from everyone. There's just no way they would ever be complacent with slaves, let alone a clone who's rallying them.

No.

Fucking.

Way.

What Shinzon did probably took years of planning and behind-the-scenes dealings.

And no one ever suspects he might do anything with the "man"power and weapons he has? 100% trust and no questions asked? PLEASE.

The job of the Tal Shiar is to suspect everyone, especially the obvious potential internal threats to the Empire.

These really are just more excuses to compensate for the complete lack of understanding of the Romulans by the writer, as well as his shoe-horning the Reman concept in for the oogly-boogly, eeeevil-looking bad guy effect.

You know this isn't Disney, it's suppose to be grown-up sci-fi drama.

How many times did Troi get taken advantage of during the series run?

A three-way mind rape doesn't = grown up anything. It's a set up for Riker and Troi to have something to do later since TNG movies have always been "The Picard and Data Show". As for Troi getting similar treatment in the shows - so what? Who says that scenario is worth revisiting?

[Jeyl]

BillJ wrote:

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You know this isn't Disney, it's suppose to be grown-up sci-fi drama.

No, the new Battlestar Galactica is a grown up sci-fi drama. And that series was smart enough not to think "You know what this series needs? A dune buggy chase in the desert!".

Star Trek was best when it was a fun, relaxing sci-fi adventure story that the whole family could enjoy. Sometimes you'll have tribbles, sometimes klingon disputes, sometimes a weird bit of time travel, and even a moment of character development that affected the entire series.

BillJ wrote:

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How many times did Troi get taken advantage of during the series run?

Do those episodes rank in the top 10, or even to 30 best episodes of TNG? Because when I hear about a great TNG episode, it doesn't involve "Troi gets taken advantage of!".

[BillJ]

Romulus Prime wrote:

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Ridiculous on this level alone...oh wait, it's only half ridiculous since he murdered the Senate.

Oh wait... it's not ridiculous since Senator Tal'Aura murdered the Senate with a miniature Thalaron device and the Romulan military was following him. Like I said, he had to cultivate alliances within the Romulan government.

Romulus Prime wrote:

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You don't know too much about Romulans I take it?

They're TV villains there to serve the story, not the other way around.

Romulus Prime wrote:

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There general mistrust of others is the norm for the majority. The MO of the Tal Shiar is that x10, expecting it as a given from everyone. There's just no way they would ever be complacent with slaves, let alone a clone who's rallying them.

No.

Fucking.

Way.

They were never presented with someone who promised them the Federation. Sometimes people will contemplate unholy alliances if it gives them what they want. Who knows, the Tal-Shiar may have had plans to eliminate Shinzon once he delivered them a victory over the Federation.

Not to mention the fact that they were embarrassed badly by the Dominion and may have lost quite a bit of political capital after their blunders.

Romulus Prime wrote:

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And no one ever suspects he might do anything with the "man"power and weapons he has? 100% trust and no questions asked? PLEASE.

There is no indication that anyone has '100% trust' in Shinzon, they're simply following his flag to get what they want.

[BillJ]

Jeyl wrote:

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Do those episodes rank in the top 10, or even to 30 best episodes of TNG? Because when I hear about a great TNG episode, it doesn't involve "Troi gets taken advantage of!".

I've always like Violations quite a bit and would definitely place it in my top-30.

[Silvercrest]

Please tell me you're referring to the episode title.

[BillJ]

Silvercrest wrote:

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Please tell me you're referring to the episode title.

Yes. That's why it's capitalized and italicized.

[Silvercrest]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[CommanderRaytas]

Silvercrest wrote:

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Shinzon's plan was to wait until he was a week from death, then lure Picard with the lure of exciting offroad action so he could capture Picard. Shinzon likes playing the odds, you see.

It's unclear what would have happened if 1) the Enterprise failed to notice the positron emission, 2) the Enterprise did the prudent thing and took several weeks to return B-4 to a Starfleet research facility, 3) Starfleet sent regular ambassadors to meet Shinzon instead of Picard, or 4) Picard was killed while playing dune buggy.

I doubt there was a backup plan for any of these things. I suspect the Shinzon would have hit the fan.

Hehehe.

This is just a tiny percentage of my fridge logic moment about an hour after watching NEM at the cinema. Most of it started with "wait, why the hell...."

I believe most points are valid, but what bugs me the most (if I bother to think about it) is the lack of coherent motivation for anyone in that film.

Nevertheless, I still watch it from time to time, and am able to get some level of entertainment out of it (mostly I watch it when I visit my parents, who love it to bits. It's become something of a tradition)...but the film is not a very good one at all, to put it mildly.

[Romulus Prime]

BillJ wrote:

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Oh wait... it's not ridiculous since Senator Tal'Aura murdered the Senate with a miniature Thalaron device and the Romulan military was following him. Like I said, he had to cultivate alliances within the Romulan government.

I.e. he had the senate murdered - same group you just said he had an "alliance" with along with the military. With friends like that...

They're TV villains there to serve the story, not the other way around.

This from the guy who implied a story focusing on a 1st officer main character would have to have a captain who's an idiot so the 1st officer could look good. Well, I have to question your understanding of writing characters and storytelling.

Romulans have an established Modus Operandi which they follow. Romulans who don't follow it are uncommon enough that when they are featured in the shows, it's as a "WTF - You can't be like that!" factor in contrast to what we know of Romulans. The Romulans featured in Nemesis don't follow any sort of Romulan pattern, dissident or otherwise. Their motivation makes no sense in light of the situation they are in and in comparison to past depictions.

They were never presented with someone who promised them the Federation. Sometimes people will contemplate unholy alliances if it gives them what they want. Who knows, the Tal-Shiar may have had plans to eliminate Shinzon once he delivered them a victory over the Federation.

Coming out of a war and starting another one right after. Not only is it a silly move for a battered army, but they would have to deal with both the Federation AND the Klingons who would be more than happy to fight people whom they consider both treacherous and generally dishonorable. Furthermore, the Romulans tend not to go "ballz out" - they lure their enemy to them, test weaknesses, and then strike.

Not to mention the fact that they were embarrassed badly by the Dominion and may have lost quite a bit of political capital after their blunders.

"Embarrassed" - WTF? They helped win the war. The Dominion lost it. Embarrassment - FXD.

There is no indication that anyone has '100% trust' in Shinzon, they're simply following his flag to get what they want.

So with partial trust, some of their military officers stand up to the leaders of their empire.

With partial trust, a Senator follows Shinzon's orders and sneaks a weapon into the senate chambers and commits mass murder.

With partial trust, they allow slaves to have weapons AND to park a super-weapon above their homeworld.

With partial trust, certain Romulans are willing to start another war right after finishing a previous war, with no real guarantee of success.


Yeah, keep going, dude...

[JarodRussell]

Last week I saw DS9: Homefront and TNG: Unification, and I had the same thoughts about Nemesis: a bigger scope would have helped. We never ever see a single glimpse of the huge machinery that would be involved in a real life event of this magnitude.

All we see is a dozen of senators getting killed and then it's "Ah well, there's a new guy.", and then it's all about Shinzon and the crew of the Enterprise. The outside world doesn't exist. No media, no public, no other politicians, no military, no diplomats involved, nothing.

It reduces these films and episodes to chamber plays.

Just imagine the same story applied to a real world scenario: Chinese government gets wiped out, and some guy takes charge, and secretly prepares a devastating attack while saying "We want peace!". Such a film would not have such a tiny scope on screen. If it did, it wouldn't feel realistic at all. In such a film, we would see at least a glimps of the machinery. Media coverage, people's reactions, a more realistic politically and military machinery, etc...

Even the tiniest things would have added to the scope, like a scene outside of the Romulan Senate. Picard and Shinzon not confering at a small table, but walking through a park, with lots of extras, and buildings, and stuff and shit. Picard being on Earth in San Francisco when he receives the order to go to Romulus, and Janeway, as an admiral, is shown to have a big crew working for her in the background in her offices. Shinzon making a public announcement that he's the Praetor now, intercut with shots of civilians and starfleet watching the broadcast. Stuff like that.

[BillJ]

*In reference to Romulus Prime's post...

This above post shows Trek's biggest failing. People have been conditioned into thinking that an entire race of people are all going to act alike and think alike. Shinzon aligned himself with like-minded folks. There were apparently folks in the military who were willing to align with him, at least one senator who aligned with him and likely some members of the Tal-Shiar who aligned with him.

The United States at one point had alliances with both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, who shared nothing more in common with us than being the enemies of our enemies.

Star Trek: Nemesis doesn't fail because of Shinzon's rise to power, it fails because his actions make no sense for most of the movie that we actually see and that some elements were forced into it that really didn't fit.

Hell, the Roman Empire had non-Romans rule it at times.

[Romulus Prime]

BillJ wrote:

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*In reference to Romulus Prime's post...

This above post shows Trek's biggest failing. People have been conditioned into thinking that an entire race of people are all going to act alike and think alike.

1st of all, I didn't say they ALL think alike (missed that part where I mentioned "dissidents?")

2nd, their society is always being watched by the government and the Tal Shiar. Conformity is essentially a mandate. Klingons aren't too different in regards to seeking out social conformity by force and words. Neither are the Cardassians.

Shinzon aligned himself with like-minded folks.

No, he didn't. Slaves want to be free of their captors. He also doesn't seem to particularly care for Romulans, and if this had been a well thought out story, they COULD have had him as more of a "freedom fighter" type, rather than a creepy, melting kid-Picard who's got a thing for cougars.

There were apparently folks in the military who were willing to align with him, at least one senator who aligned with him and

All of which makes Romulans look like idiots, which they were in this movie. They don't take stupid risks like that.

likely some members of the Tal-Shiar who aligned with him.

Supposition based on nothing substantial OR believable.

The United States at one point had alliances with both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, who shared nothing more in common with us than being the enemies of our enemies.

We're not Romulans. They are (supposed) to be alien with a different way of of viewing the universe they live in.

With regards to your examples, neither of them were US slaves who were given fully loaded F-15s and F-16s (thank the French and Soviets for Saddam's Mirage, Étendard, and Mig fighters). Furthermore, the Afghan conflict was about Soviet expansion (again) and Iran's hardline government had only slightly less hostility as it does now. Both were dangers to world stability, and still are (Putin's Russia now.) If you don't believe me, just look up the latest Ahmadinejad quotes, and look how much Russia tries to stifle any interference with Iran, and with ally Syria which might end up with Al Assad being deposed. Different situations which are not even remotely similar to anything found in Star Trek: Nemesis

Star Trek: Nemesis doesn't fail because of Shinzon's rise to power, it fails because his actions make no sense for most of the movie that we actually see and that some elements were forced into it that really didn't fit.

It fails for all these reasons.

Hell, the Roman Empire had non-Romans rule it at times.

The Roman empire never had non-HUMAN rulers at any point.

[BillJ]

Romulus Prime wrote:

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The Roman empire never had non-HUMAN rulers at any point.

I can't believe you typed that...

Shinzon does not gain control of the Romulan Empire without the help of Romulans. You can do all the backwards somersaults you want to work around it. It simply doesn't happen.

Riker even says in the movie that the praetors power has always been the Romulan fleet. Shinzon does not take control without the support of the fleet.

Early in the film, they're on the right track. They paint this image of Shinzon being this cunning, cold warrior who takes control of the Empire. But they present us a pimply nerd who is infatuated with Troi's hair and wants to have tea with the brother who had a better life than he did.

Shinzon rising to power isn't the problem, it's the fact that the character we see doesn't match the character we are told about.