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Old August 20 2012, 12:40 AM   #16
Christopher
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Klingon politicians never seem to be very honourable. There was probably a point when one Chancellor wanted more power and managed to remove the Emperor and his family from the picture, then seized ultimate control.
But if it were as simple as that, then said chancellor would've probably just declared himself emperor. There would have to be some reason why the High Council chose to eliminate the actual position of a single autocratic ruler.

I would think they elevated the Council to the highest position in government as a way to prevent any single individual or dynasty from holding absolute power. I can see that serving a practical function; Klingons wouldn't like to be ruled over, so if just one dynasty/house ruled everyone, then everyone else would be constantly battling it to try to take over, and the unending warfare would've devastated the society and economy. By replacing a single emperor with a ruling council representing all the major noble families, and with a system of succession to the chancellorship that gives any sufficiently strong warrior the chance to claim it, you'd allow the noble families to feel they had sufficient status and reputation that they wouldn't need to be trying to overthrow the government all the time and said government could actually get some work done.
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Old August 20 2012, 08:52 AM   #17
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

On the other hand, we don't know whether the previous Emperor position was a hereditary one, and whether it would have been any more complicated to "elect" a new Emperor by duel or assassination than it is to "elect" a new Chancellor that way. Somehow, I don't see Klingons suffering a hereditary ruler for any length of time - or bothering with the position of Chancellor when the position of Emperor existed. Perhaps the only thing that changed three centuries prior to "Rightful Heir" was the name of the throne-related job?

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Old August 21 2012, 12:38 AM   #18
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

Kahlest made the interesting statement in "Sins of the Father" that Mogh had a great deal of loyalty to the Emperor, despite Gowron's later claim in "Rightful Heir" that the position hadn't existed politically for three centuries.
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Old August 21 2012, 04:40 AM   #19
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

Well, to me it's only interesting in that it shows they were making up new things as they went and not letting past throwaway lines keep them from telling the stories they wanted to tell. "Heart of Glory" implied that "Kling" was the name of the Klingon homeworld, but then TUC ignored that and called it Kronos (which Mark Okrand later Klingonized as Qo'noS), and that took precedence because it was a bigger story and a clearer reference, and to some extent simply because it came later.

Considering what I said earlier about the common people seeing little difference in who rules them, it's possible that commoners like Kahlest don't see much difference between the old emperors and the current chancellors, and thus use the labels somewhat interchangeably.

Of course, we do know that Gowron likes to rewrite Klingon history to suit his agendas, so we can't necessarily trust his claim that there hasn't been an emperor in 300 years. It could be that the emperorship was temporarily re-established at some more recent point, but Gowron or his predecessors have expunged those emperors from the histories, or at least dismissed the legitimacy of their claims to the throne.
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Old August 21 2012, 05:36 AM   #20
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

Where is a Klingon? On Kling.

Yeah, that's pretty weak.
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Old August 21 2012, 05:48 AM   #21
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

The Castellan wrote: View Post
If a commoner in Klingon society challenges a nobel to combat to the death, and wins, can that make him/her a nobel?
Probably not.

There are strict rules in Klingon society regarding who can challenge who, and for what reason. And that's for starship crews, who are basically of equal standing (except for actual rank).

I doubt a commoner would be allowed to bring a challenge against a noble.
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Old August 21 2012, 11:03 AM   #22
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

The Castellan wrote: View Post
If a commoner in Klingon society challenges a nobel to combat to the death, and wins, can that make him/her a nobel?
Probably not. Martok would had done that if it was possible.
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Old August 21 2012, 07:15 PM   #23
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

How does one get ennobled in the Klingon society? In (most of) ours, this happens when a man of means provides military resources for a man of highest political power, in such an amount that he himself doesn't yet become a man of highest political power. But Klingons are all warriors (at least through several prominent members of each clan or bloodline or whatnot), and Martok did have a House, even if not a noble one, that brought its resources to the Empire's struggles.

Is Klingon nobility a closed community of limited numbers, thanks to it really never needing any refreshment from among people who can factually provide military resources? In our society, nobility soon becomes incapable of performing its original duty, this duty ironically being too common for them, yet in the Klingon society this would not appear to be the case.

Martok was a commoner officer, but even "Once More Unto" did not make it sound as if this would be, ahem, uncommon. Indeed, for all we know, most Klingon officers might be commoners, and for this reason inferior to those who are not, formal rank aside. A Klingon commands by his own choosing and through his personal strength, not by mandate from above. Apparently, a noble Klingon just adds the mandate from above to this to enjoy superior status when really big decisions are made.

Martok's father apparently had never been an officer, nor had any of his ancestors. But Martok becoming one through bravery did not turn him into a nobleman. It is left unclear whether Martok would have been ennobled had he reached his commission through attending the Academy, which apparently produced "elite officer ranks". Such a thing would IMHO fit the Klingon mindset, though: a nobleman would create himself though martial achievements, but only if the right people approved.

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Old August 22 2012, 12:04 AM   #24
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

Timo wrote: View Post
How does one get ennobled in the Klingon society? In (most of) ours, this happens when a man of means provides military resources for a man of highest political power, in such an amount that he himself doesn't yet become a man of highest political power. But Klingons are all warriors (at least through several prominent members of each clan or bloodline or whatnot), and Martok did have a House, even if not a noble one, that brought its resources to the Empire's struggles.

Is Klingon nobility a closed community of limited numbers, thanks to it really never needing any refreshment from among people who can factually provide military resources? In our society, nobility soon becomes incapable of performing its original duty, this duty ironically being too common for them, yet in the Klingon society this would not appear to be the case.

Martok was a commoner officer, but even "Once More Unto" did not make it sound as if this would be, ahem, uncommon. Indeed, for all we know, most Klingon officers might be commoners, and for this reason inferior to those who are not, formal rank aside. A Klingon commands by his own choosing and through his personal strength, not by mandate from above. Apparently, a noble Klingon just adds the mandate from above to this to enjoy superior status when really big decisions are made.

Martok's father apparently had never been an officer, nor had any of his ancestors. But Martok becoming one through bravery did not turn him into a nobleman. It is left unclear whether Martok would have been ennobled had he reached his commission through attending the Academy, which apparently produced "elite officer ranks". Such a thing would IMHO fit the Klingon mindset, though: a nobleman would create himself though martial achievements, but only if the right people approved.

Timo Saloniemi
Klingon nobility seems to be based on "blood" and genealogy, kinda like the noble classes in the real world. Nobles are born into nobility and others are not. Noble families seem to trace their bloodline to past imperial dynasties, while other families do not have that connection. Kor barred Martak from military service, because his family did not have "noble blood". I think the Klingon Empire is a meritocracy to a point, but since they place a lot of importance upon tradition and rituals, it makes sense that some families would have more power then others, due to their bloodline.
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Old August 22 2012, 11:43 AM   #25
Timo
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

But bloodlines die out. Getting ennobled, that is, moving from commoner to noble, ought to be part of the Klingon system somehow, or else there would be no noble Klingons left.

How does that part happen?

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Old August 22 2012, 07:16 PM   #26
Drago-Kazov
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Re: Why did the Klingons get rid of the position of Emperor for 300 ye

We don't know and we won't unless KRAD can write some more Klingon books.
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