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Old August 20 2012, 01:37 PM   #61
CommanderRaytas
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Cardassians would be stripped of the majority of their territory. Certainly any "colonies" with indigenous populations would be evacuated of the resident Cardassians, and should the natives be primitive, Cardassian technology and structures would be removed. Any star systems/planets in previously disputed areas would be transferred to non-Cardassian parties. Chakotay's people would finally get their planet back, others too. There would be legitimate need for the Cardassians to retain small patrol starships, but their medium and heavy warships would be confiscated. Colonies established on uninhabited world might remain the territory of the Cardassians.
I know I'm necroposting, but...boy, do I disagree. This is exactly the kind of policy that France and the other allies (minus the Americans) inflicted on Germany after 1918.

Kind of backfired, as stripping a proud nation of its territories and technology made the ascent of people like Hitler possible in the first place.

Do this to the Cardies, and it will end up biting you in the arse, even if it is a few decades later.
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Old August 20 2012, 01:51 PM   #62
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

If you are talking about the treaty of Versailles, Whilst terriotiral issues did play a part in the events leading upto WWII it was more the reperations which crrippled the Germany economy that was one of the bigger influences on the events leading upto WWII. And it was actually a Brit, John Maynad Keyes that convinced many of British and American leaders at the time that they were reperations were overly harsh. The French leaders were left largely unmoved.
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Old August 21 2012, 12:54 PM   #63
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

It was mostly the French, yes, you're right about that...but as far as I got T´Girl's post, she was suggesting reparations of the sort, such as mostly dismantling the Cardassians' fleet, taking their colonies, dividing the Union into zones, controlled by different powers. What I was suggesting is that this would create a lot of resentment amongst the Cardassians toward the victors, much as the Versailles treaty did amongst the Germans.

...which would, after a while, probably cause the opposite of the desired effect, namely pacifying the Cardies. It would make them hate everyone else even more than they did before the war.
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Old August 21 2012, 01:34 PM   #64
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

One might argue that Cardassia never was a first-rate military power and thus could safely be made angry - it could never rebound to any level of military significance no matter how much hatred was behind the effort.

Then again, the one thing Cardassia appeared to do very well before the war, and was suspected and feared of doing, was clandestine arming. And now they would have learned a trick or two from the amazingly self-sufficient Dominion forces... So the quarantine and deprivation measures would have to be really extreme to truly prevent the Union from re-establishing a military industry and eventually a fighting force.

Not to say this couldn't be done anyway. But it sounds like something the UFP wouldn't do.

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Old August 21 2012, 01:35 PM   #65
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Well if what happened to the Cardassians was closer to after WWII than WWI. It might turn out reasonable.
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Old August 21 2012, 01:45 PM   #66
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Yes, but their sense of patriotism was not destroyed and trampled into the ground by a horrible ideology that led them to destruction, such as was the case with Germany after WWII. They were morally finished as well as physically.

Not so the Cardassians. They turned on the Dominion out of pride and patriotism (which was a good thing), and most likely their morale was more like Germany's after WWI. Meaning that I sustain my opinion....breaking them down like that would only result in future conflict, fuelled by hatred and resentment rather than economic motives.

Sure you can't compare the Cardassians with pre-WWII Germany; the latter were more of a threat to everyone - although with the Dominion factored in, the Cardies were actually threatening to win the war, weren't they? They mostly didn't due to the awesome powers of deus ex machina.

But military might (or lack thereof) aside...no-one had any use for further war, even ten or twenty years in the future.

Helping them back on their feet, as the Americans have helped Germany after WWII, that's the way to pacify Cardassia...and it seems to me that's the Federation way, anyway. Stripping them of their dignity as well as their resources would backfire eventually, as the Cardassians aren't like to forget such a grievous insult...and if anything, they are resilient. They'd get there eventually.
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Old August 21 2012, 01:51 PM   #67
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Cardassians would be stripped of the majority of their territory. Certainly any "colonies" with indigenous populations would be evacuated of the resident Cardassians, and should the natives be primitive, Cardassian technology and structures would be removed. Any star systems/planets in previously disputed areas would be transferred to non-Cardassian parties. Chakotay's people would finally get their planet back, others too. There would be legitimate need for the Cardassians to retain small patrol starships, but their medium and heavy warships would be confiscated. Colonies established on uninhabited world might remain the territory of the Cardassians.
I know I'm necroposting, but...boy, do I disagree. This is exactly the kind of policy that France and the other allies (minus the Americans) inflicted on Germany after 1918.

Kind of backfired, as stripping a proud nation of its territories and technology made the ascent of people like Hitler possible in the first place.

Do this to the Cardies, and it will end up biting you in the arse, even if it is a few decades later.
Weren't the germans also obligated to pay a lot money for the damage they did trought the war?
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Old August 21 2012, 01:55 PM   #68
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

WWI. After WWII, everyone kind of paid each other for the mutual damage. For example the British government helped Germany rebuild the Frauenkirche (a cathedral) in Dresden...they had bombed the church to the ground along with the entire city, during the final months of the war, when Germany wasn't even in the state to throw rocks at the attackers.

The Americans put in a lot of money, as well, and helped the people on the Soviet side of Berlin not to starve to death, the first few years after 1945.
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Old August 21 2012, 02:33 PM   #69
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

...FWIW, my native Finland was the only losing nation to actually pay its WWII reparations. Rather than being a cause for resentment and anger, it's just about the only thing we remember the victors fondly for: the national myth tells that by producing stuff for the USSR, we not only re-established but actually for the first time established an industrial base that subsequently gave us true international competitiveness. (It's mostly bollocks, of course, but it sounds good.)

Cardassia might remain a proud nation even when deprived of colonial holdings, as long as they have things to remain proud of. And they have an excellent and experienced propaganda machine to create such things, out of whole cloth if need be... (Or out of tatters, as it rather may be.)

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Old August 21 2012, 04:35 PM   #70
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Often, in star trek, one encounters the idea that a defeated culture can rebound stronger than ever before and take its revenge - that this is quite likely.
That's largely fantasy.

In actual history, this only happened when the victors (by peace treaty or similar means, not complete victory/occupation) were foolish enough to let a developed country all but unsupervised - for a rather long period of time.
What happened FAR more often is the defeated cultures either disappeared or were culturally assimilated by the conqueror (Roman Empire, South America, etc, etc). The hardiest cultures only managed to survive during the millenia, until TPTB took pity on them and let them have countries/etc again.
Defeated people only rise again if the victors (or their successors) LET it happen - either intentionally or due to negligence on their part.

In the trekverse, the romulan or klingon occupation policies are MORE than enough to ensure that the cardassians never rise again as a great power - and their resentment forever remains impotent, without teeth.
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Old August 21 2012, 04:49 PM   #71
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Aren't the Romualns right now in the midlde of political turmoil? Klingon cilvil war could happen anyttime with all those noble houses and vendettas. Let's not forget the klingon fleet takes a huge blow from Nero.
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Old August 21 2012, 04:58 PM   #72
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Aren't the Romualns right now in the midlde of political turmoil? Klingon cilvil war could happen anyttime with all those noble houses and vendettas. Let's not forget the klingon fleet takes a huge blow from Nero.
Such mishaps are not nearly enough to upset the utter domination of klingon/romulan occupation forces against mere terrorists; a phenomenon the romans (for example) - like most empires - also dealt with.
History - real world history - shows empires don't fall - aren't even moderately inconvenienced - due to terrorists.

You need a military, a large, well equipped army for such momentary weakening of the klingons/romulans to be exploitable.

As said - the notion that defeated people can overthrow their vigilant conquerors is largely fantasy.
The defeated can only hope and pray in historical happenstance - that his conqueror will be defeated by someone else, more kindly disposed toward him.

If the klingons/romulans want to keep the cardassians as as subjugated people, they can do so relatively easily. It's as simple as that.
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Old August 21 2012, 05:12 PM   #73
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Such mishaps are not nearly enough to upset the utter domination of klingon/romulan occupation forces against mere terrorists; a phenomenon the romans (for example) - like most empires - also dealt with.
History - real world history - shows empires don't fall - aren't even moderately inconvenienced - due to terrorists.
They could give a reason for those empires to pull out.
You need a military, a large, well equipped army for such momentary weakening of the klingons/romulans to be exploitable.
They have the experience and the minds to set up a regular army and they pobably have a relativly intact infrastructure on the part occupyed by the Feds who might let them have their own state after a while.

As said - the notion that defeated people can overthrow their vigilant conquerors is largely fantasy.
How many colonies did Britain had in 1912 and how many does it have now?
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Old August 21 2012, 05:20 PM   #74
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Such mishaps are not nearly enough to upset the utter domination of klingon/romulan occupation forces against mere terrorists; a phenomenon the romans (for example) - like most empires - also dealt with.
History - real world history - shows empires don't fall - aren't even moderately inconvenienced - due to terrorists.
They could give a reason for those empires to pull out.
Really?
When did they, outside fiction?

Only when TPTB WANTED to retreat - not due to terrorism, but due to other factors.
You need a military, a large, well equipped army for such momentary weakening of the klingons/romulans to be exploitable.
They have the experience and the minds to set up a regular army and they pobably have a relativly intact infrastructure on the part occupyed by the Feds who might let them have their own state after a while.
They can have all the experience and minds they want.
An army, they can't have - not with a klingon/romulan force supervising the cardassian territory resources/said minds/periodically squashing any cardassian guerillas, etc, etc.

As said - the notion that defeated people can overthrow their vigilant conquerors is largely fantasy.
How many colonies did Britain had in 1912 and how many does it have now?
And what was the reason for Britain's departure?
You actually think indigenous terrorism did it? As opposed to events WAY above such level?

I already told you:
"The defeated can only hope and pray in historical happenstance - that his conqueror will be defeated by someone else, more kindly disposed toward him."

It's nice to believe that no one is truly defeated, that there are always second chances, etc. But such feel-good ideas are always proved false by a mere history book.

In effect, you wish to devolve star trek to the level of a children's tale, in order to feel fuzzy and warm inside.
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Old August 21 2012, 06:49 PM   #75
Timo
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

In actual history, this only happened when the victors (by peace treaty or similar means, not complete victory/occupation) were foolish enough to let a developed country all but unsupervised
The key factor there would appear to be whether the defeated country was annexed or not.

In (European) history, annexation of defeated enemies has gone in and out of fashion - and in the 20th century was very much out of fashion, it being quite unthinkable for France to annex Germany, say. Even minor border provinces or distant colonial holdings were rather declared "mandates" or "neutral zones" or "joint control regions" or whatnot. This meant that industries and national feelings indeed could rebound even after a decisive defeat in the battlefield.

Nothing of the sort was possible e.g. for Poland on all those occasions where the country or nation itself ceased to be in terms of geography. Foreign, split rule and the existence of internal borders would quite physically prevent industrial recovery or the assembling of unifying political parties or movements.

The Cardassian Union would be hacked to pieces by the very fact that its defeat apparently consisted of the gradual conquest of its outer holdings in a great inward push (and never mind that the decisive strike was one of the Washington vs. Richmond sort, a short hop made possible by shifts in the overall balance of power rather than in locally relevant military factors). On the other hand, Cardassia itself might well remain undivided and the vast majority of Cardassian people untouched by occupation or other rule by the victors. Their traumatizing or depowering experiences would come from their wartime alliance gone sour, which might in fact be conductive of national pride.

As for the other POV, that of the victors... Klingons probably wouldn't be all that hot about weakening their enemy beyond a certain point. They prefer strong opponents, especially when those have been decisively defeated (compare to the idolization of Rommel or Napoleon in the British tradition). From which it follows that Romulans would love to give Klingons exactly what they want! And the UFP would want to see Cardassia rise again for humanitarian reasons. With such agendas at play, it is far from implausible that everybody would get way more than they bargained for.

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