DCAU appreciation

[kirk55555]

I own B:TAS volumes 1 and 2, and I like most of the episodes. Everything with Mark Hamil is great. I'm also a big Harley fan, and episodes with her are always entertaining. I plan to get volume's 3 and 4 eventually, but they're pretty expensive. I can't really even say which one if my favorite, I like so many of them.

There is one episode I'm conflicted about. I didn't like Zatanna not being a real magician in the episode "Zatanna". I get that Batman at that point hadn't really dealt with stuff like that, but the show did end up having a guy who is immortal because of magic pits, so I don't see why Zatanna had to be just a stage magician. Of course, they never really say she isn't a real magician, or atleast there is never a scene that proves she isn't. Maybe she just hid her powers from Batman. It would mess up why Batman would be learning tricks from a real magician and his daughter, but if the DCAU is supposed to be in continuity with each other (Superman, Batman, JL/JLU, Batman beyond all being connected) then that episode of batman would contradict the JLU episodes she's in where she has real magic powers. I wish she had made more full appearances besides just one speaking cameo in JLU, I like her character and it would have been cool to see her get a JLU episode that focused on her.

[Turtletrekker]

Christopher wrote:

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A line whose iconic status I hate, because it's totally wrong. Batman is not about vengeance. If he were, he would've killed Joe Chill and retired. Batman is about justice, and about trying to keep other people from having to mourn the deaths of their loved ones.

I can't really disagree with anything you say here, but in truth, it isn't really the line itself that makes it iconic, it's Conroy's delivery. When Conroy roared, "I am Batman!" I said, "Yes, you are."

I thought they were pretty good, especially part 2. The animation in part 1 (by Akom, a generally mediocre studio) was poor, but part 2 was animated by the brilliant Tokyo Movie Shinsha and features some of the most spectacular, amazing animation ever seen on American television at that point.[

Maybe I'll go ahead and re-watch part 2 without the encumberance of part 1. Like I said, part one was my first impression of the show as a whole, so that is what I tend to think of when I think of these eps. (In particular, the scene where Batman is lugging the thug around Gotham by his wrist with the Bat-Plane.)

Also the first Paul Dini-scripted Joker episode, which is why the previous Joker episodes were all so lame in comparison.

I need to keep closer track of who writes what.

It feels much more substantial than that to me, thanks to the dark edge Dini's writing gives it and the soulful brilliance of Roddy McDowall's performance.

No argument about the performances. The acting in this show is so consistently good that it is easy to take for granted. And this episode has stuck with me all of these years. When Kimmy Robertson recently did a Burger King commercial, as soon as I heard her distinctive voice, my eyes widened and I said, "Alice"!

[Christopher]

kirk55555 wrote:

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There is one episode I'm conflicted about. I didn't like Zatanna not being a real magician in the episode "Zatanna". I get that Batman at that point hadn't really dealt with stuff like that, but the show did end up having a guy who is immortal because of magic pits, so I don't see why Zatanna had to be just a stage magician.

Well, when they were first introduced in "The Demon's Quest," it wasn't established that the Lazarus Pits were magical, just a special chemical formulation that had a rejuvenating effect. (And isn't that what they are in the comics as well?) The first unambiguous depiction of the supernatural in a B:TAS episode was in "Avatar" in the second season, when Ra's awoke the spirit/mummy/whatever of Thoth Kepera.

Of course, they never really say she isn't a real magician, or atleast there is never a scene that proves she isn't. Maybe she just hid her powers from Batman. It would mess up why Batman would be learning tricks from a real magician and his daughter, but if the DCAU is supposed to be in continuity with each other (Superman, Batman, JL/JLU, Batman beyond all being connected) then that episode of batman would contradict the JLU episodes she's in where she has real magic powers.

Not necessarily. It could be that she didn't gain actual magic powers until after the events of her namesake episode. We know that a fair number of years passed between B:TAS and her JLU appearances, long enough for Robin to graduate and become Nightwing and for the events of TNBA and JL's first two seasons to elapse. As I've said, I find it works pretty well to assume the series ran in pretty much real time, and there were 11 years between "Zatanna" and the first time we saw her with magical powers in JLU. Well, we also saw her use magic in her Gotham Girls appearances 7-8 years after "Zatanna," but those are of questionable canonicity. Either way, there's plenty of time for her to have gone from just a stage magician to an actual sorceress, either by acquiring magical ability somewhere or by discovering an inborn ability she hadn't previously been aware of.

In fact, that makes sense to me. If she'd always been a sorceress, why would she employ the trappings of a stage magician? It makes sense if that was what she was to begin with and the real sorcery emerged later.

I wish she had made more full appearances besides just one speaking cameo in JLU, I like her character and it would have been cool to see her get a JLU episode that focused on her.

She did. "This Little Piggy" was a major showcase episode for her (written by Paul Dini, who also wrote "Zatanna" and is a major Zatanna fan, using her extensively in his Batman comics, writing a whole series about her, and even being married to a woman who's a dead ringer for her).

Turtletrekker wrote:

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I can't really disagree with anything you say here, but in truth, it isn't really the line itself that makes it iconic, it's Conroy's delivery. When Conroy roared, "I am Batman!" I said, "Yes, you are."

Okay, granted, but I do wish they'd subbed "justice" for "vengeance." Then it would've been fine.

Still, even aside from that, it's kind of a melodramatic line.

When Kimmy Robertson recently did a Burger King commercial, as soon as I heard her distinctive voice, my eyes widened and I said, "Alice"!

Hmm. When she played Alice, I already knew her as Lucy from Twin Peaks. It's your first impression that sticks with you.

[kirk55555]

The cameo I was mentioning was "This Little Piggy". She had maybe 5 lines in the whole thing, definately not a major role. Also, if there were 11 years between her episode and JLU, then she would have looked a good deal older. she didn't, and neither did Batman (although his new art style helps hide any aging). Besides, she learned her magic from her Dad, and I'm pretty sure he's dead by the time she appears in Batman.

Also, 11 years seems like a long time. Batman in B:TAS has, at the beginning of the series, been batman for 7-9 years, since Dick was robin at age 12 and he's 18 when he first appears. Bruce needed years to become a master detective after he went off to train as a teenager, plus probably atleast one solo year, so lets say he was 23 when Robin joined him. That would make him 30-31 during the beginning of batman: TAS, which I think works. If JL happened 11 years after that, he'd be in his forties, and that seems a bit old for him in JL. I could be totally wrong, but thats just how I worked it out in my head.

[The Habs Fan]

I've recently thought of watching all of the DCAU. I've seen most of B:TAS and some episodes of BB but nothing of the rest. I found this site through a google search: http://www.gothboy.com/television/DC...NG%20ORDER.htm

Do you think this would be an interesting order to view the episodes or should I watch them by airdate?

[TV's Frank]

kirk55555 wrote:

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The cameo I was mentioning was "This Little Piggy". She had maybe 5 lines in the whole thing, definately not a major role. Also, if there were 11 years between her episode and JLU, then she would have looked a good deal older. she didn't, and neither did Batman (although his new art style helps hide any aging). Besides, she learned her magic from her Dad, and I'm pretty sure he's dead by the time she appears in Batman.

Also, 11 years seems like a long time. Batman in B:TAS has, at the beginning of the series, been batman for 7-9 years, since Dick was robin at age 12 and he's 18 when he first appears. Bruce needed years to become a master detective after he went off to train as a teenager, plus probably atleast one solo year, so lets say he was 23 when Robin joined him. That would make him 30-31 during the beginning of batman: TAS, which I think works. If JL happened 11 years after that, he'd be in his forties, and that seems a bit old for him in JL. I could be totally wrong, but thats just how I worked it out in my head.

It doesn't bother me that Batman in the DCAU would be in his forties by the time JL/JLU occurs and I kind of like that idea too, gives him more gravitas, knowledge and experience than most. A man in his excellent shape would still be in his prime during those years.

[Christopher]

kirk55555 wrote:

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The cameo I was mentioning was "This Little Piggy". She had maybe 5 lines in the whole thing, definately not a major role.

When was the last time you saw the episode? That's definitely not true. Most of the episode was a Batman-Zatanna teamup. Here's the summary.

Also, if there were 11 years between her episode and JLU, then she would have looked a good deal older. she didn't, and neither did Batman (although his new art style helps hide any aging).

Well, as I said, we know several years must have passed between B:TAS and JLU. Dick was 18 when we first saw him in B:TAS, in his first year of college. So he graduates four years later, and according to the Lost Years comic, travels the world for two years and four months before returning to become Nightwing at the start of TNBA, when Tim became Robin. We know that Tim was Robin during Static Shock's second season, but that by the SS third-season premiere "Hard as Nails," Robin had left and was with the Titans, so that puts it after the end of TNBA's 24-episode run, so it's probably more than a year after Dick became Nightwing. Later that same season was the SS/JL crossover "A League of Their Own." That crossover was sometime before "Star-crossed," and then some unspecified but significant amount of time passed between "Star-crossed" and the start of JLU. So from B:TAS to the start of JLU must be a span of at least eight years, possibly more.

Now, admittedly, if we assume she was a bit younger than Bruce, then by my chronology she'd be 30-31 in "Zatanna," which would make her up to 42 in "This Little Piggy." But there are certainly women in their early 40s who still look youthful and beautiful, though sometimes with a little surgical help. And Zatanna's magic could assist her in that as well.

Besides, she learned her magic from her Dad, and I'm pretty sure he's dead by the time she appears in Batman.

The comics' Zatanna learned her magic from Zatara, but of course we're talking about a different continuity where characters' origins and histories are often different. We don't know how this Zatanna got her sorcery, so it could've happened in any number of ways.

That would make him 30-31 during the beginning of batman: TAS, which I think works. If JL happened 11 years after that, he'd be in his forties, and that seems a bit old for him in JL. I could be totally wrong, but thats just how I worked it out in my head.

True, by my reckoning, Batman is 43 by the end of JLU, the last time we see him in the DCAU "present." But there have been athletes who have continued to be effective into their early forties, such as Jimmy Connors. Now, realistically, the kind of abuse Batman's body has been constantly put through would've most likely crippled him by 30, but we're expected to suspend disbelief and assume his extraordinary training or exceptional durability lets him continue to function. And we know canonically from Batman Beyond that he didn't retire as Batman until he was roughly 60. He did need the high-tech Batsuit to compensate for his age at that point, but he was still pretty capable. So if he could be Batman in his late 50s, he certainly could've been in his early 40s.

And remember, as early as "Mean Seasons" in TNBA, we saw that Bruce was starting to worry about finding gray hairs. I have him as 37 at that point.

Of course the makers of the shows were keeping their characters ageless, and wouldn't have worried much about the passage of time if the shows had continued to be produced. But as it happens, the DCAU ran just long enough that a chronology based on real time does juuust manage to work, with a little fudging.

[Snaploud]

In Batman: The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, Batman is healed from a stab wound by using the "Fountain of Essence" (a variation of the Lazarus pit). He is healed to full health and slightly de-aged. It's not hard to imagine that such a situation would add a couple decades of vitality to his crime-fighting career. Granted, it's from a comic, but it's not hard to imagine something similar happening in the DCAU.

I'm sure there were other situations in which Batman was healed from the brink of death by some mystical or technological marvel. Every one of them could have added a few more years to the old guy's career, and that's not even taking into account the possibility that he might have sought out ways to restore his health.

[Turtletrekker]

In one of the Batman Beyond commentaries it was mentioned that at one point a script included a reference to Bruce being 87, but they were asked to remove any specific reference to his age. It was also mentioned that BB takes place 50 years from "now", with "now" being the era of B:TAS/TNBA, so Christopher's speculation of 37 seems just about right.

[Gotham Central]

Snaploud wrote:

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In Batman: The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, Batman is healed from a stab wound by using the "Fountain of Essence" (a variation of the Lazarus pit). He is healed to full health and slightly de-aged. It's not hard to imagine that such a situation would add a couple decades of vitality to his crime-fighting career. Granted, it's from a comic, but it's not hard to imagine something similar happening in the DCAU.

I'm sure there were other situations in which Batman was healed from the brink of death by some mystical or technological marvel. Every one of them could have added a few more years to the old guy's career, and that's not even taking into account the possibility that he might have sought out ways to restore his health.

I might be wrong but all of the Justice League members were turned into kids in the first season of JL. Its not unreasonable to suggest that they might have come back from that a little younger than where they started.

[Gotham Central]

TV's Frank wrote:

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It doesn't bother me that Batman in the DCAU would be in his forties by the time JL/JLU occurs and I kind of like that idea too, gives him more gravitas, knowledge and experience than most. A man in his excellent shape would still be in his prime during those years.

The really odd thing is that in Justice League, Batman looks the same but for some reason Superman has wrinkels. Its even stranger given than in the DCAU, Batman would have to be older than Superman (and operating for longer as well given that even Martha Kent knew enough to call him a "Nut" in the pilot for Superman TAS)

[Christopher]

^Wrinkles? What are you talking about? The only lines on JL/U Superman's face aside from eyes, nose, mouth, and brows were a cleft in his chin and a couple of cheekbone lines to suggest angular features.

[Brikar99]

Christopher wrote:

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^Wrinkles? What are you talking about? The only lines on JL/U Superman's face aside from eyes, nose, mouth, and brows were a cleft in his chin and a couple of cheekbone lines to suggest angular features.

I seem to recall that in the first season of Justice League, Superman had some pronounced lines on his cheeks, but then they were removed in the subsequent seasons.

[Christopher]

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. They weren't meant to be wrinkles, they were meant to represent the sharp edges of his cheekbones. I've never seen wrinkles in that particular position or shape.

[Reverend]

^I think people get that impression because those lines didn't make his cheekbones look pronounced so much as they made his whole face look drawn, gaunt, almost sickly. That combined with the unintentionally desaturated pallet and the way they struggled to use him and his powers in early season one is why a lot of fans felt he was very much weak sauce. They got a handle on it by the end of the season though and with the stronger characterization and removal of said lines in 'Twilight', he was back to his old self.

I suppose one might suggest he was still recovering (physically and mentally) from the events of the STAS finale, but that's really a justification after the fact.