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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 19 2012, 05:25 AM   #121
R. Star
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ At least the Bajoran resistance tried as best they could to confine their attacks to members of the Cardassian military.

And as I said, the Maquis surely could have disabled the Bok'Nor without destroying it.

On the subject of Sisko, though: He did not commit any crimes. Eddington started those attacks with the express intention of wiping out Cardassian colonies. Sisko, OTOH, simply leveled the playing field, by forcing the Maquis and Cardassians to exchange colony sites. No one died as a result of Sisko's actions, but if Eddington had gone unchecked, there would have been casualties... remember, Sisko gave ample warning for the Maquis to evacuate.
He gave an entire planet of thousands, if not millions of people an hour. Even assuming everyone on the planet has a spaceship(highly unlikely), there's no way you're even going to CONTACT everyone.

But hey, Eddington did it, so as long as someone else does it first, mass murder is justifiable... but don't blow up weapon smugglers no matter what! Yeah...

And no, the Bajorian resistance did not confine their attacks to the military. Watch "Cardassians" again. To say nothing of their policy of executing collaborators no matter the cost. Kira was nearly willing to kill her own mother because of that. They used every means necessary to hamper the enemy. That meant killing them. The people who supplied them. The people who helped them. That's how you fight a guriella war.
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Old August 19 2012, 06:14 PM   #122
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Yeah, Sisko's actions in "For the Uniform" was mind-numbingly stupid...thank God everything else about him is awesome, or I'd hate the character.

There is absolutely no justification for a trained military officer to use a WMD against a human colony just to capture one very persistent terrorist. Imagine any real world scenario with the same general concept. The fact that there were no consequences just made it even worse. It would have been interesting if the Maquis at least tried to get revenge on the Federation somehow for such a callous act against fellow Federation citizens, rogue or not.
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Old August 19 2012, 06:44 PM   #123
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

I dunno, we've had leaders who declared war on a country that had nothing to do with a terrorist attack and walked away from what they'd unleashed scot-free...
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Old August 20 2012, 01:54 AM   #124
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I dunno, we've had leaders who declared war on a country that had nothing to do with a terrorist attack and walked away from what they'd unleashed scot-free...
Completely unrelated to what Sisko did. Political leaders can make decisions to go to war. Whether you agree or disagree with that decision is your personal choice, but it has nothing to do with Sisko, a military officer, using a WMD upon a civilian colony without any authorization, just to capture somebody who Starfleet rightly judged Sisko to be too vulnerable to Eddington, due to the personal nature of his betrayal.

This would be like some American military officer using nerve gas against Kabul unless Osama surrendered himself. Osama is a douche, but he's not worth the potential deaths of hundreds of thousands. And no, the weapon taking maybe two hours before taking effect does not guarantee the proper evacuation of the entire civilian population of the planet Sisko bombed.
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Old August 20 2012, 03:20 AM   #125
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

I believe in "For the Uniform" Sisko specifically states (sorry!) that because of the Maquis' actions in attacking the Malinche they've become a threat to Federation security and as a group are no longer considered civilians for these purposes.

That said, how much of it is Federation-sanctioned and how much is Sisko being a badass isn't made clear.

For reference-

SISKO: I've only just begun. I'm going to eliminate every Maquis colony in the DMZ.
EDDINGTON: You're talking about turning hundreds of thousands of people into homeless refugees.
SISKO: That's right. When you attacked the Malinche you proved one thing, that the Maquis have become an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation, and I am going intend to eliminate that threat.
EDDINGTON: But think about those people you saw in the caves, huddled and starving. They didn't attack the Malinche.
SISKO: You should have thought about that before you attacked a Federation starship.
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Old August 20 2012, 04:06 AM   #126
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I believe in "For the Uniform" Sisko specifically states (sorry!) that because of the Maquis' actions in attacking the Malinche they've become a threat to Federation security and as a group are no longer considered civilians for these purposes.

That said, how much of it is Federation-sanctioned and how much is Sisko being a badass isn't made clear.
He had absolutely no authority to chase Eddington, as was stated earlier when the captain of the Malinche basically told Sisko that he was taking over the hunt, and to back off. However, this is par the course for Star Trek shows, so, that'd be forgivable (like when they went to rescue Odo in The Die is Cast) although he'd probably get a browbeating for disobeying orders.

However, he freaking gassed a colony. He had absolutely no authority to do so. Look at how uncomfortable his OWN CREW was at the order, how do you think the various dispassionate Admirals would react to Sisko proposing gassing Maquis colonies because ONE SHIP was disabled. It's too bad they didn't actually relieve him of command, would have been much more interesting, and highly justified.

More importantly, as Eddington rightfully stated, that colony had nothing to do with the Malinche. At all. But, going with Sisko's argument, any town sympathetic to the Taliban in Afghanistan can have nerve gassed dropped on them.

For reference-

SISKO: I've only just begun. I'm going to eliminate every Maquis colony in the DMZ.
EDDINGTON: You're talking about turning hundreds of thousands of people into homeless refugees.
SISKO: That's right. When you attacked the Malinche you proved one thing, that the Maquis have become an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation, and I am going intend to eliminate that threat.
EDDINGTON: But think about those people you saw in the caves, huddled and starving. They didn't attack the Malinche.
SISKO: You should have thought about that before you attacked a Federation starship.
I like Sisko, I really do, but this episode is quite possibly where I could see him as being the bad guy. He had more guilt over one pro-Dominion Romulan senator over gassing a colony of hundreds of thousands of people.
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Old August 20 2012, 05:06 AM   #127
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Sisko had every right to go after the Maquis for attacking the Malinche. An attack on any Starfleet vessel is an attack on all Starfleet. The Maquis attacked one ship, they can do it again. It's Sisko's responsibility to come to the aid of his fellow captain.

Sisko was entirely correct. By that one attack, the Maquis proved their hostile intentions towards the entire Federation. Sisko would be remiss if he did NOT go after them for it.

And perhaps if Eddington enjoyed manipulating Sisko so much, let's see how he likes BEING manipulated for once.

Also: for the thousandth fucking time, all Sisko did in his attacks was force the Maquis and the Cardassians to exchange colonies. No one was left homeless, no one died. If Eddington had gone unchecked, though, there'd have been casualties aplenty...
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Old August 20 2012, 06:07 AM   #128
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Also, provided that "an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation" does translate into some level of Federation or Starfleet legalese, it's possible that, once the Maquis were classified in such a manner, Sisko did have the authority, or at least the potential authority, to "gas" the colony (which IMO implies a bit more than actually occurred; i.e. it seems like a weasel-word). It may have been at the extreme end of what Sisko was allowed to do, or it may have been well within the range, but not commonly invoked. Hell, for all we know at that point Sisko might have been able to get away with nuking the planet.

In any case, notably none of the Defiant crew actually made a move to belay Sisko's order, which effectively would make them all guilty. The fact that none of them actually opposed it could be construed as indicating that Sisko did have the authority to issue the orders he issued at that point in time. As I said, perhaps they were surprised because the order was a possibility but not generally pursued, or perhaps they initially thought he was bluffing and were surprised to find out that wasn't the case.
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Old August 20 2012, 09:06 AM   #129
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

By that logic Maxwell should have gotten off scot free for attacking the Cardassians in The Wounded.
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Old August 20 2012, 12:46 PM   #130
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Or look the other way after the Cardassian military attacked a Federation run the station with civilians on board.


SISKO: When you attacked the Malinche you proved one thing, that the Maquis have become an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation, and I am going intend to eliminate that threat.
An "intolerable threat"? come on, I doubt the Maquis were out to conquer the Federation.

I think the Federation has always been easier on the Cardassian Empire than it needed to be.

Bajor was brutally occupied by Cardassia, and the Federation ignored it. Or at least, refused to intervene directly. Later they send one Industrial replicator.

Cardassia is attacked by the Klingons, and straight away the Federation sends ships and military to help them against the Klingons even starting a war.

Later they send over a dozen industrial replicators.

Theyv'e caught them violating treaties and plotting things numerous times, and yet always looked the other way.

I think Sisko was using that as an excuse to settle the score with Eddington-by getting back at the Maquis.

Technically Sisko was correct. yet, technically he was exaggerating.

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Old August 20 2012, 04:14 PM   #131
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Also, provided that "an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation" does translate into some level of Federation or Starfleet legalese, it's possible that, once the Maquis were classified in such a manner, Sisko did have the authority, or at least the potential authority, to "gas" the colony (which IMO implies a bit more than actually occurred; i.e. it seems like a weasel-word). It may have been at the extreme end of what Sisko was allowed to do, or it may have been well within the range, but not commonly invoked. Hell, for all we know at that point Sisko might have been able to get away with nuking the planet.
Maybe something like Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter?

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Old August 20 2012, 04:22 PM   #132
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Heh, it's possible.

The reality is we don't know how much, if any, communication Sisko had with Starfleet, much less what Starfleet regulations would have to say about the situation, so we really have no idea exactly how out-of-bounds Sisko was at the time. He apparently wasn't out-of-bounds enough for any of his subordinates to file a protest...or they're as guilty as he is.

All we really know is that he apparently didn't get pre-approval for what he actually did, but that could mean he didn't get approval for his specific actions versus what he did in more general terms.

It's possible, though I'll admit unlikely, that Starfleet told him, "Do whatever you have to do, within reason." "Within reason" is, of course, a horrifically vague phrase. But then, they'd probably not be as keen to say, "Take whatever actions you deem necessary."

Lord knows many contemporary militaries probably have all kinds of "extreme measures" protocols that no average citizen can or would want to know about.
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Old August 20 2012, 04:25 PM   #133
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

R. Star wrote: View Post
By that logic Maxwell should have gotten off scot free for attacking the Cardassians in The Wounded.
Really? I don't recall anyone saying during that episode that the Cardassians constituted "an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation".
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Old August 20 2012, 06:01 PM   #134
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

R. Star wrote: View Post
By that logic Maxwell should have gotten off scot free for attacking the Cardassians in The Wounded.
Do we know he didn't get off scot free? We don't know what happened to the man or his ship after Picard finally made Maxwell stand down.
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Old August 20 2012, 06:17 PM   #135
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Re: The Maquis or the Federation?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sisko had every right to go after the Maquis for attacking the Malinche. An attack on any Starfleet vessel is an attack on all Starfleet. The Maquis attacked one ship, they can do it again. It's Sisko's responsibility to come to the aid of his fellow captain.

Sisko was entirely correct. By that one attack, the Maquis proved their hostile intentions towards the entire Federation. Sisko would be remiss if he did NOT go after them for it.
They attacked the USS Defiant earlier. I don't have an issue with the Federation going after the Maquis. I don't have an issue with that, except the fact he disobeyed an order from Starfleet to stand down after Starfleet judged Sisko as being compromised. He instead disobeys orders and goes off in an already damaged ship to "help" the Malinche.

However, as I already stated, Starfleet captains disobey orders in every single series. This is par the course for the series, and I don't hold Sisko against it.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:
And perhaps if Eddington enjoyed manipulating Sisko so much, let's see how he likes BEING manipulated for once.

Also: for the thousandth fucking time, all Sisko did in his attacks was force the Maquis and the Cardassians to exchange colonies. No one was left homeless, no one died. If Eddington had gone unchecked, though, there'd have been casualties aplenty...
I'm sorry, what?

So, as long as the status quo is achieved, it's okay to use WMDs? Are you serious right now? Let's have Sisko argue my point for me in "Rules of Engagement":

"But you're a Starfleet officer, Worf, we don't put civilians at risk, OR EVEN potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose the battle, or sometimes our lives. But if you can't make that choice, then you can't wear that uniform."

Ahh, but if you're chasing one pain in the ass Maquis that embarrassed you, go ahead and risk civilians lives by using a WMD on a colony! They're just off-screen characters affiliated with said pain in the ass, they don't matter.

DonIago wrote:
Also, provided that "an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation" does translate into some level of Federation or Starfleet legalese, it's possible that, once the Maquis were classified in such a manner, Sisko did have the authority, or at least the potential authority, to "gas" the colony (which IMO implies a bit more than actually occurred; i.e. it seems like a weasel-word)
Let's recap quickly what happened.

  1. Sisko and Dax look over the book that Eddington sent, in which Sisko concludes he needs to "become the villian".
  2. He then goes to the bridge and orders Worf to prepare two quantum torpedoes with cargo pods with 200kg of trilithium to each torpedo. Worf tells him the torpedoes would not be effective against ships, which Sisko brushes off.
  3. Immediately after that order, he asks Kira where the nearest colony, which she tells him, and Sisko orders to lay a course for said colony.
  4. After that, he relays a warning to the Maquis about his plan in subspace. The crew, after hearing his plan, are shocked, but still obey.
  5. The colony, as you can guess, didn't exactly think a Starfleet captain would do such a thing, didn't begin evacuation. Eddington also questions what the hell he's doing, and sees it as a bluff.
  6. Sisko orders Worf to fire, which Worf hesitates, but then obeys. The quantum torpedoes leave the Defiant and poison the planet's atmosphere, leaving the inhabitants scrambling to evacuate. Unknown if said colony has enough ships strategically placed near all populations to properly evacuate.
  7. Sisko then claims that the Maquis is an "intolerable threat" to Eddington.
  8. Eddington surrenders himself and the weapons.
  9. Sisko, back on DS9, then tells Dax he didn't clear this plan with Starfleet.
So, how exactly is it a "weasel-word" or implying more than what happened? I was wrong with one thing. I said chemical weapons, they called them "biogenic" weapons on Memory Alpha. Beyond that, I basically went with what the episode showed. I didn't imply anything.



Also, how does Sisko admitting he didn't get clearance for the plan somehow justify his claim that the Maquis was an "intolerable threat"?


DonIago wrote:
In any case, notably none of the Defiant crew actually made a move to belay Sisko's order, which effectively would make them all guilty. The fact that none of them actually opposed it could be construed as indicating that Sisko did have the authority to issue the orders he issued at that point in time. As I said, perhaps they were surprised because the order was a possibility but not generally pursued, or perhaps they initially thought he was bluffing and were surprised to find out that wasn't the case.

I know they didn't disobey, which, I think I said earlier, they should have. It certainly would have been more dramatic and interesting, and would have shown Sisko that Eddington isn't worth compromising his ethics. They are all guilty, or at least the bridge officers are. In the real world, they'd probably be court-martialed, jailed, and possibly even executed.
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