Crossover with other franchises?

[Dantheman]

I just thought that a G.I. Joe/Star Trek crossover would be neat idea. Possible starting point: The mirror universe is a future version of an Earth conquered by Cobra.

[doubleohfive]

Oh that'd be just great. Shipwreck and Riker can reminisce about how they both lived through the same plot contrivance over a cold one.

[Timewalker]

Christopher wrote:

---

You went way beyond "correcting" it. You took such a vicious attitude that it sounded like you were judging me for my innocent attempt to find some chronological information about the universe. I didn't know what parts were introduced by which author; I was just trying to research the question. And you jumped down my throat for daring to consult a reference that didn't meet with your approval. So hell yes, I felt attacked. Anyone would if they got that kind of vitriol in response to an innocent attempt at research.

Let's review what I said:

Timewalker wrote:

---

This is not a credible site, since it's infested with the retconned KJA/BH "prequels/sequels/interquels" stuff that DIRECTLY contradicts the BASIC established tenets that Frank Herbert set down in the 1960s. It was retconned in the Butlerian Jihad trilogy (a KJA/BH travesty that had robots and cymeks fighting a holy war where the original Frank Herbert novels made it plain that it was opposing camps of HUMANS fighting a holy war of IDEAS and PHILOSOPHY regarding computers/"thinking machines"), and in that trilogy Earth was nuked. This did not happen in the FH novels.

This is not "vitriol." This is a legitimate answer. I said the site was not credible, and why. I made no criticism of you for referencing it. You asked about the Guild Steersmen. Let's review my reply:

Timewalker wrote:

---

The Guild Steersmen are humans who mutate when exposed to the spice gas that expands their consciousness in such a way that they can find safe passage (using foldspace technology) so as to not come out in the middle of a solid object, for example, when emerging from foldspace. My impression is that one either has the genes that allow for this mutation or one doesn't. It's the Tleilaxu that deliberately genetically engineered themselves to be Face Dancers (able to alter their physical appearance at will). Genetically, however, the Tleilaxu are still considered human.

Straightforward answer there - no criticism of anybody. Then I answered your comment about Arrakis:

Timewalker wrote:

---

Yes, of course there's a whole ecosystem on Arrakis. The only weak point I've ever considered of the way the planet was conceived in FH's mind is the oxygen content of the atmosphere. I really don't get how there could be enough, given the extreme scarcity of photosynthesis going on.

Again... a perfectly logical, civil answer. You chose not to acknowledge these answers, though, dismissing them as "not useful" (so it seems from your comment to someone else). Then you started getting nasty with me, and it's my perception that you posted this partly due to our spirited disagreements in other threads about canon and non-canon:

Christopher wrote:

---

And don't give me that "not part of his vision" line. The stuff I've written for Star Trek wasn't part of Roddenberry's vision either. All that matters is whether something is good or bad. Purism is an illegitimate basis for determining quality.

I tried to explain that the Dune situation is nasty. I didn't know KJA had endorsed your book. But I stand by every word I said about him, based on having read his books and corresponded with him. I tried to put it in terms that you would find more familiar (Star Trek) - and expressed faith in your integrity, that you wouldn't betray the ST legacy so egregiously.

Whereupon you decided to attack me for expressing my distaste for Kevin J. Anderson, calling it a "hatefest." I maintain that what I said here is extremely mild in comparison to what some other people have said - people who, in my opinion, have indeed crossed the boundaries of legitimate criticism of an author's work and made it extremely personal.

iarann wrote:

---

You used the line "it's obvious that the quality is meant to completely spread metaphorical solid organic human waste material all over the original creator's work". How is that not a "hatefest"?

Should I have expressed it the way others have done, and said a different word that is often filtered on forums? Or a different expression entirely that is NOT filtered here, but that I can't fathom why it isn't because it's so incredibly vulgar?

Okay, I was angry. Apologies to everybody who was offended by my choice of vocabulary. Consider that the gist of what I meant was "profoundly disrespect the original creator's work."

You don't find this statement a little out of hand? Someone politely defended a person who, as a multiple New York Times best selling author, gave him an endorsement, and therefore he loses you as a reader?

You have misunderstood what I said. I decided to remove Christopher from my reading list because of what he said to me and how he said it, not because Kevin J. Anderson gave him an endorsement.

You write fanfic. Crossover fanfic at that. I'm not sure how you feel you have any basis to judge others work. Not everyone hates those books as much as you do; they wouldn't still be selling so well if that was true. People say similar thing about the Star Wars prequels all the time, yet they make billions for George Lucas. A vocal group of fans on the Internet does not mean everyone has a unified opinion on a subject. It that were true the Star Wars prequel trilogy would have ended with Phantom Menace bombing out at the theatre, Firefly would be back on the air, the Dune books would have ended with House Atreides as a massive failure, Ron Paul would be president, JJ Abrams Star Trek movie would have been a massive failure, etc etc.

Over 35 years as a science fiction reader and Star Trek fan gives me the basis on which to judge others' work. And yes, I write fanfic. However, in my fanfic you won't find wild changes like incest stories in Dune (it was considered anathema in the Imperium, especially among the Fremen), slash fiction, changes in the events of a character's life that had a profound effect on that character as presented by the original creator (thus changing the character's "self", background, motivations, etc.)... In my fanfic I do meticulous research on characters, background events and settings, and that I make every effort to get each character's speech patterns and intonations as authentic as possible. If I'm writing a satire or parody, I make it clear from the get-go, so people who don't like that kind of writing can skip it. So yeah, I think I've got a good basis for judging others' work.

As regards Star Wars, I loved the original versions of the first movies - Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi. I own the VHS versions of those before Lucas started tinkering with them (which he has every right to do, since he owns the rights to them). I found the other Star Wars movies so boring, I couldn't make myself finish watching them. And I don't care if Lucas made 2 cents or 2 billion on those prequel movies. I still don't like them. And it's my right to say so. Same with a novelist. Yes, KJA's books sell well. That doesn't mean they're actually good writing.

That being the case, if you dislike something so much, just avoid it. Why do you feel the need to attack others for reading them or accidentally making a reference to them?

KJA himself asked me why I kept buying the nuDune books if I didn't like them. My reply was that I kept hoping they would improve... but they never did. And I consider that if I'm going to criticize an author's work, the least I can do is make sure it's because I've actually read them and know what my own personal opinions are, instead of parroting stuff other people have said (incidentally, I avoid film critics precisely for this reason - I prefer to make up my own mind). And I attacked nobody here for reading the nuDune books, and I certainly didn't attack Christopher. He was operating from the pov of a misunderstanding, and I corrected him. He's the one who chose to interpret that as an attack.

So because an someone is capable of defending themselves, that makes it ok to insult them? Do you do this in person too?

I'm not stopping Kevin J. Anderson from coming here and defending himself, if he wishes to do so. The fact is that he prefers interacting via social media and email, not forums. In person I criticize people if I think it's warranted. How they defend themselves (or not) is up to them, same as if it were the other way around.

Why not create a Dune thread over in the "Miscellaneous" part of the board to discuss it? I would love to discuss the issue with you there if you are willing to be a bit more civil in your discourse.

I'll consider that, but you would have to understand that I feel very strongly about this issue.

KingDaniel wrote:

---

I want a comic book based on the Star Trek Mr. Potato Head line. I'm not even sure that's really a crossover but it MUST be done.

That would be adorable! I guess you could consider it a crossover with the Toy Story movies, since Mr. Potato Head appears in them.

[Christopher]

^If you have something to say about Dune, you should follow the suggestion above and say it in a different thread, so that people who are interested in the subject can discuss it there and the rest of us can get back on topic.

[JD]

Timewalker wrote:

---

Let's review what I said:

This is not "vitriol." This is a legitimate answer. I said the site was not credible, and why. I made no criticism of you for referencing it. You asked about the Guild Steersmen. Let's review my reply:

Straightforward answer there - no criticism of anybody. Then I answered your comment about Arrakis:

Again... a perfectly logical, civil answer. You chose not to acknowledge these answers, though, dismissing them as "not useful" (so it seems from your comment to someone else). Then you started getting nasty with me, and it's my perception that you posted this partly due to our spirited disagreements in other threads about canon and non-canon:

I tried to explain that the Dune situation is nasty. I didn't know KJA had endorsed your book. But I stand by every word I said about him, based on having read his books and corresponded with him. I tried to put it in terms that you would find more familiar (Star Trek) - and expressed faith in your integrity, that you wouldn't betray the ST legacy so egregiously.

Whereupon you decided to attack me for expressing my distaste for Kevin J. Anderson, calling it a "hatefest." I maintain that what I said here is extremely mild in comparison to what some other people have said - people who, in my opinion, have indeed crossed the boundaries of legitimate criticism of an author's work and made it extremely personal.



Should I have expressed it the way others have done, and said a different word that is often filtered on forums? Or a different expression entirely that is NOT filtered here, but that I can't fathom why it isn't because it's so incredibly vulgar?

Okay, I was angry. Apologies to everybody who was offended by my choice of vocabulary. Consider that the gist of what I meant was "profoundly disrespect the original creator's work."


You have misunderstood what I said. I decided to remove Christopher from my reading list because of what he said to me and how he said it, not because Kevin J. Anderson gave him an endorsement.


Over 35 years as a science fiction reader and Star Trek fan gives me the basis on which to judge others' work. And yes, I write fanfic. However, in my fanfic you won't find wild changes like incest stories in Dune (it was considered anathema in the Imperium, especially among the Fremen), slash fiction, changes in the events of a character's life that had a profound effect on that character as presented by the original creator (thus changing the character's "self", background, motivations, etc.)... In my fanfic I do meticulous research on characters, background events and settings, and that I make every effort to get each character's speech patterns and intonations as authentic as possible. If I'm writing a satire or parody, I make it clear from the get-go, so people who don't like that kind of writing can skip it. So yeah, I think I've got a good basis for judging others' work.

As regards Star Wars, I loved the original versions of the first movies - Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi. I own the VHS versions of those before Lucas started tinkering with them (which he has every right to do, since he owns the rights to them). I found the other Star Wars movies so boring, I couldn't make myself finish watching them. And I don't care if Lucas made 2 cents or 2 billion on those prequel movies. I still don't like them. And it's my right to say so. Same with a novelist. Yes, KJA's books sell well. That doesn't mean they're actually good writing.


KJA himself asked me why I kept buying the nuDune books if I didn't like them. My reply was that I kept hoping they would improve... but they never did. And I consider that if I'm going to criticize an author's work, the least I can do is make sure it's because I've actually read them and know what my own personal opinions are, instead of parroting stuff other people have said (incidentally, I avoid film critics precisely for this reason - I prefer to make up my own mind). And I attacked nobody here for reading the nuDune books, and I certainly didn't attack Christopher. He was operating from the pov of a misunderstanding, and I corrected him. He's the one who chose to interpret that as an attack.


I'm not stopping Kevin J. Anderson from coming here and defending himself, if he wishes to do so. The fact is that he prefers interacting via social media and email, not forums. In person I criticize people if I think it's warranted. How they defend themselves (or not) is up to them, same as if it were the other way around.

I'll consider that, but you would have to understand that I feel very strongly about this issue.

That would be adorable! I guess you could consider it a crossover with the Toy Story movies, since Mr. Potato Head appears in them.

Can't we just move on here, please. And looking at this situation as an someone who knows very little about Dune (I've read up on some of the story when I tried to read the first book a couple years ago), it definitely seems like a bit of an overreaction. We get you don't like post Frank Herbert Dune, we really don't need multi-paragraph posts about how much you hate Kevin J. Anderson and his books.

[R. Star]

You know... whenever I have the urge to write a long detailed post explaining my actions and motivations like Timewalker's, I usually ask myself why. If I can't give a good answer to that, I don't bother.

If this is going to be a continual personal back and forth, maybe you two could kindly take it to PM's?

[JD]

If that was to me, then I've said all I wanted to say on the topic in my post above. I just felt that his behavior was inappropriate, and now that I've said so, I'm done.

[R. Star]

JD wrote:

---

If that was to me, then I've said all I wanted to say on the topic in my post above. I just felt that his behavior was inappropriate, and now that I've said so, I'm done.

I was referring to the back and forth spat between Timewalker and Christopher... just didn't want to quote another two page block of text.

[JD]

R. Star wrote:

---

I was referring to the back and forth spat between Timewalker and Christopher... just didn't want to quote another two page block of text.

Ah, my apologize then.

[JRoss]

Oh, dear. Let's "re-rail" this train. What does anybody think of Farscape/Lost in Space with the Jupiter 2 being a rival to the Farscape project? BSG/Star Wars? Homeboys in Outer Space/2001: A Space Odyssey? Can we please just have fun again?

[Christopher]

R. Star wrote:

---

I was referring to the back and forth spat between Timewalker and Christopher... just didn't want to quote another two page block of text.

There is no back and forth. I've made it quite clear I have nothing to say on the subject of Dune, I've tried to put an end to it and move on, and frankly I'm not even reading most of what Timewalker has been posting. I just want it to stop.

[Timewalker]

JD wrote:

---

Can't we just move on here, please. And looking at this situation as an someone who knows very little about Dune (I've read up on some of the story when I tried to read the first book a couple years ago), it definitely seems like a bit of an overreaction. We get you don't like post Frank Herbert Dune, we really don't need multi-paragraph posts about how much you hate Kevin J. Anderson and his books.

Well, excuuuuuuuuse me! Feel free to ignore my posts if they bore you - like I prefer to ignore certain people around here.

I use Dune as the example I'm most familiar with regarding the issue of authors writing in somebody else's original universe without respecting the established internal consistency of that original universe. Other people may use other examples.

JD wrote:

---

If that was to me, then I've said all I wanted to say on the topic in my post above. I just felt that his behavior was inappropriate, and now that I've said so, I'm done.

If you are referring to my behavior as "inappropriate," I would remind you that it's also inappropriate to refer to a female poster as male.

Anyway, I've just discovered how to use the "Ignore List" - so now I'm much calmer.



And I did take it back on track anyway - I love the idea of a Toy Story/ST crossover using the Star Trek "Mr. Potato Head" characters! I wonder who's more macho - Potato-Kirk or Buzz Lightyear?

[JD]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were female.

[Timewalker]

JD wrote:

---

Sorry, I didn't realize you were female.

One of the little icons you have under your "location" is the blue symbol for "male", and so I will make sure to always refer to you as "he".

I have a little pink icon under my "location" - the symbol for "female". I get the impression that not very many people on this forum ever notice these icons.

Apology accepted.

[JD]

Yeah, I know about that, I just always forget to check it.