DCAU appreciation

[Christopher]

PointedEars wrote:

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I prefer Batman TAS to TNBA, but I really enjoy them both. That being said, the one thing I didn't like about The New Batman Adventures was what Bruce Timm and company did with the Dick Grayson character. They had him and Batman at odds most of the time, and showed that Dick actually punched Bruce in the face and left Gotham for a few years. Eventually the character was just dropped without any goodbye story. It was eventually explained in one line in ROTJ that he moved to another city, but we never saw or heard from Grayson in the DCAU.

I'm not sure what you mean. Dick was a major recurring character in TNBA. What you're talking about, his falling-out with Batman and his world travels, comes from the flashbacks in the episode "Old Wounds," and is spelled out in more detail in the comic miniseries The Batman Adventures: The Lost Years, written by the late Hilary J. Bader, one of the head writers for TNBA. But Dick came back in his new identity of Nightwing, and was featured in seven TNBA episodes, as well as making nonspeaking cameo apperances in JL's "The Savage Time" and JLU's "Grudge Match." He was also mentioned but not seen in S:TAS: "Knight Time," several Batman Beyond episodes, Return of the Joker, and JLU: "Epilogue."

Reverend wrote:

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IIRC, Bruce Timm has said that the RotJ flashback are the last thing to happen in the BTAS -> JLU timeframe. Meaning that it all happens *after* JLU...

I know that's the intent, but I couldn't make it fit in my chronology that way, so I had to fudge it. After all, JL/U hadn't been made yet when RotJ came out, so it resulted in a continuity glitch. Putting the RotJ flashbacks earlier than Timm wanted is the only way I could reconcile the inconsistency.

Likewise the main story of RotJ is supposed to be the last thing in that time frame (save for 'Epilogue', of course.)

I'm not sure why I put it earlier. I think it may have had something to do with Bruce taking over Wayne/Powers again in the movie -- there may have been something in a third-season episode that seemed like it came after that.

'Mystery of the Batwoman' was I think supposed to take place around season 2 of Justice League (there's mention of weapons shipments to that fake county who's name I forget, the one Vandal Savage takes over?)

Kaznia. It was shown to be in a troubled state as early as the S:TAS premiere, so MotB could've easily taken place sometime between that and JL.

I recall Timm saying at the time that they always kept the exact timeline deliberately loose, with everything basically taking place in 'Peanuts' time. So it's really not supposed to withstand close scrutiny.

Actually I found that it works surprisingly well if you assume that most of it (except the BB stuff, of course) happened in roughly real time. The real-life intervals between series and events therein are usually consistent with what's implied about the in-story intervals.

[Showdown]

I love the DCAU. Batman TAS and Superman TAS are awesome. My favorite is the JL/JLU series.
I even made that youtube video (I've posted it here before)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSdKTffSSo
(with song High School Never Ends by Bowling for Soup)

PointedEars, I agree Christopher here. I don't think Bruce Tim hates Dick Grayson. Maybe the studio execs want a younger Robin, so they use Tim Drake. Dick had a falling with Bruce and became his own hero, Nightwing. But the two reconciled and they worked together a few times. I think he was even best man at Bruce's wedding in the TNBA episode Chemistry.

Hey kirk55555, as for not watching the Zeta Project, don't worry, you're not missing much.

[Christopher]

Showdown wrote:

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Maybe the studio execs want a younger Robin, so they use Tim Drake.

I think it's probably the other way around. The producers of B:TAS probably wanted Dick to be younger, but the show was on FOX during a time when the censorship on "children's" shows was pretty strict, so they were required to make Robin 18 years old. (Which is odd, since the Power Rangers were supposed to be high schoolers.) Once they were on the WB with its milder restrictions on content, they were free to feature a younger Robin at last. Obviously they couldn't have Dick age backward, so that meant bringing in a new Robin -- and that let them incorporate Tim from the comics. And meanwhile they took the opportunity to allow Dick to grow up and begin the next phase of his career by becoming Nightwing -- which is the sort of thing you do when you like a character and want to develop him, not when you hate him. We probably would've seen him in more episodes if the series had run longer.

[Gotham Central]

PointedEars wrote:

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I prefer Batman TAS to TNBA, but I really enjoy them both. That being said, the one thing I didn't like about The New Batman Adventures was what Bruce Timm and company did with the Dick Grayson character. They had him and Batman at odds most of the time, and showed that Dick actually punched Bruce in the face and left Gotham for a few years. Eventually the character was just dropped without any goodbye story. It was eventually explained in one line in ROTJ that he moved to another city, but we never saw or heard from Grayson in the DCAU.

One explanation that I've heard concerning this treatment of the character was that Bruce Timm himself hated Dick Grayson and originally wanted to use Tim Drake for TAS, but they went for Grayson because the general public was more familiar with that version of Robin. Does anyone know if that's true? And I wish they would bring back the DCAU, if for no other reason to tie up Dick Grayson's storyline. Maybe they could have a post Return of the Joker flashback animated movie where Batman quits the Justice League, takes Dick's and Barbara's respective costumes from them, and forbids Tim from ever donning the Robin costume again. Essentially, Bruce would be on his own, aided only by Alfred.

Actually one of the reason that we never hear from Dick again was the stupid Bat embargo that hit the later series of the DCAU. I suspect that Nightwing would have been a member of the JLU if not for the embargo. After all the artists on the series managed to skirt the embargo slightly by showing Nightwing from behind in an episode of JLU that took place in Bludhaven.

[PointedEars]

Turtletrekker, thanks. I do now recall seeing something about that storyline. I just meant that I wish that they would do it in animation as a DVD film and bring back Loren Lester, Kevin Conroy, et. al. in their roles.

To Christopher and Showdown, I just was repeating a rumor I had seen on one site about the DCAU,( I know, I know, never trust anything, especially on the Net.) and I regret that. I was just saying that I wished we had gotten a better wrapup for Nightwing, though I agree with Gotham Central that the reason they had the bat embargo on using Batman's supporting characters (other than Bats himself) was because of the new cartoon The Batman. The rational for JLU to not be able to use the other Batman characters was because it would confuse younger viewers with two shows having the same characters. I think young viewers are savvy enough to know the difference though.

[Reverend]

Christopher wrote:

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I know that's the intent, but I couldn't make it fit in my chronology that way, so I had to fudge it. After all, JL/U hadn't been made yet when RotJ came out, so it resulted in a continuity glitch. Putting the RotJ flashbacks earlier than Timm wanted is the only way I could reconcile the inconsistency.

What inconsistency? The only one I can think of is the costume not being the same as the one in JL/JLU. I'd hardly call that a problem. Really it's just aesthetics, but if you want to be really anal about it, one can say he just changed costumes occasionally, no?

Kaznia. It was shown to be in a troubled state as early as the S:TAS premiere, so MotB could've easily taken place sometime between that and JL.

Sure, but the movie was produced around the same time as JL's second season so that way round makes a little more sense. Again, I wouldn't get too hung up over the costumes.

Actually I found that it works surprisingly well if you assume that most of it (except the BB stuff, of course) happened in roughly real time. The real-life intervals between series and events therein are usually consistent with what's implied about the in-story intervals.

It probably works well precisely because they avoided being specific about how much time has passed. If they'd made a habit of getting into specifics then you can bet there'd be a ton of errors and contradictions. Sometimes the best way to maintain continuity is to not bother with it at all. All that Cadmus stuff in JLU that tied back into old STAS & BTAS was just a happy coincidence. It only *looked* like they pre-planned it all. Very well done mind.

[TV's Frank]

I was in college when i discovered Batman: The Animated Series back in '92 and I immediately loved it. I had really liked the two Tim Burton Batman films, especially due to Danny Elfman's scores, but I had never read a Batman comic previously. BTAS was and is an amazing show in all aspects, whether its character design, voice talent, art direction, music, writing, direction, sound design, etc etc. With the recent 4-disc release of music from the show, I was revisiting a number of episodes in the DVD sets.

I never wound up seeing Batman Beyond, STAS or JL/JLU, the latter only recently. I purchased the complete JL/JLU series on DVD last year, found it at Amoeba Records here in L.A. for a great price, and I really enjoyed diving back into the DCAU, especially for Batman's continuing arc. I picked up season one of BB as well.

This also led me to seek out the comic book series from the 90's set specifically in the animated universe, such as the aforementioned "Lost Years". And then I finally started to dive into the larger world of Batman comics, starting with the various collections like "Batman in the 70's", "Birth of the Demon" and "The Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told". It's been a real treat to discover these marvelous comics, especially the work of Denny O'Neil. I keep finding items in the comics that found their way into BTAS!

[Turtletrekker]

I finished volume one, which contained the first 28 episodes, a lot quicker than I expected. It's a show so good that you can keep watching and watching. My first sitting encompassed the first 10 episodes and a commentary. Overall, excellent television with only a few clunkers in the bunch.The storytelling is cinematic and adult and thoroughly entertaing.


"On Leather Wings" was a good opener as it really established everything you need to know about the character. All of the other DCAU shows begin with "Origin Stories", but B:TAS just jumps right in with the action. C'mon, he's Batman. Does he really need an introduction?

"Christmas With The Joker" First appearances of Joker and Robin. This one might have come off a little silly if it weren't for Mark Hamill's brilliant performance of the Joker. I loved the punch-line with the pie in the face. Again no introduction is needed for the Joker as we first encounter him well into his battles with Batman. It made me wonder how far into his crimefighting career Batman was at this point. Obviously long enough for people to know who he was, for him to establish a relationship with Gordon and for him to establish rivalries with the Joker and the Penguin. But we get introduction eps for the rest of the Rogues Gallery, which at first made me thing the show took place early in his career. At least two years, per "The Jokers Favor", but obviously longer when you take his history with Dick Grayson into account.

"Nothing to Fear" The introduction to the Scarecrow had some powerful stuff, but will always be remembered by me as the ep with Kevin Conroy's delivery of the line, "I am vengence, I am the night, I am Batman!"

"The Last Laugh"-- Another great performance from Hamill. I think I would have been happy if every episode were Conroy's Batman vs Hamill's Joker. I liked Bruce's "April Fools" joke on Alfred at the end.

"Pretty Poison"-- The introduction of Poison Ivy. Noteworthy to for for its establishing the friendship between Bruce Wayne and Harvey Dent. I liked that they had the foresight to include Dent as a charcter before his eventually fall. I know that Dent appeared briefly in "On Leather Wings", but here he is given a bigger spotlight.

"The Underdwellers"-- Meh. First cluncker on the bunch. They can't all be winners.

"P.O.V"-- I liked this episode. Bullock, Montoya and a rookie all giving their own version of a botched stakeout involving Batman. Thefirst time that you really see how cool Montoya is.

"Forgotten"-- Bruce Wayne with amnesia, kidnapped and working at a forced labor mining camp. Alfred coming to the rescue, and his exchanges with the bat-plane, made this episode.

"Be A Clown"-- An OK episode made great by Mark Hamill.

"Two-Face" parts 1 & 2-- The payoff to the early inclusion of Harvey Dent. I have to admit that I nevr really cared for the changes in the origin (And I suppose acid in the face might have been a bit much for the network censers), I did really enjoy these episodes. But seriously Harvey, two fiancees in six episodes? The guy got around.

"It's Never Too Late"-- A nice tale of two rival ganglords, and how one of them seeks redemption. Not all of the good Batman stories need bizarre super-villains.

"I've got Batman in my Basement"-- The first appearance of the Penguin is a bit of a "meh" episode. Treid to be light-hearted and came out bland.

"Heart of Ice"-- This is a favorite. The first appearance of Victor Frieze, and the performance from Michael Ansara, were first rate. A very convincing and touching take on what was previously a bit of a one-note villain with a gimmick.

"The Cat and the Claw" 1 &2-- The first appearance of Catwaoman/Selina Kyle was purfect (sorry). The story was everything it needed to be and the electricity and sexual tension between the characters was evident in the actors portrayals.

"See No Evil"-- Wow. I actually had to consult wiki to remeber anything about this episode. I guess we'll classify this as a "clunker".

"Beware The Gray Ghost"-- A classic despite it's plot-holes. Adam West's portrayal of Simon Trent was sincere and convincing and it was just plain cool cool to hear West and Conroy in a scene together.

"Prophecy of Doom"-- Gullible rich people falliing for an obvious scan and throwing millions of dollars at it. Sounds like Scientology. Clunker.

"Feat of Clay" 1 & 2-- Clunkers. It felt like they had too much story for one episode, but not enough for two. Ironically, these were the first two episodes of the series that I ever saw. I remember not thinking much of the show at first as a result. My opinion did quickly change.

"The Jokers Favor"-- The first appearance of Harley Quinn and a personal favorite of mine. I totally dug the idea that the Joker would make poor, unfortunate Charlie Collins into his "hobby". It just seemed like the kind of twisted thing the Joker would do.

"Vendetta"-- An OK episode focusing on Harvey Bullock. Bullock may be an ass, but for the most part, he's a good cop protecting the city just like Batman.

"Fear of Victory"-- The return of the Scarecrow AND Robin. Another OK episode. Overall, hardly Robin's finest moment.

"The Clock King"-- A lame, one-note villain with an unconvincing, and slightly silly, gimmick. I can't really call this one a clunker because of some sequences that I really liked, but not really a great one either.

"Appointment in Crime Alley"-- Excellent. First time that Bruce's origins are really addressed and I always liked the character of Leslie Thompkins. Diana Muldaur was a perfect casting choice.

"Mad As A Hatter"-- This one could have been silly, but works in 50s Dick Sprang era kind of way.

"Dreams in Darkness"-- What? Three Scarecrow episode before a second turn from Penguin, Two-Face, of Catwoman (granted the latter two were introduced in two-parters)? A nd didnt we just have this scene...

Batman "Where's Scarecrow?"

Guard: "In his cell"

Batman: "Check again"

Guard: "If you say so-- Wha----? He's Gone!"

... just four episodes ago in "Fear of Victory"?

Anyway, rewatching Batman: The Animated Series has been too much fun, but I'm going to take a short break... To start on the first few disks of Superman: The Animated Series.

Will post thoughts on that later.

[Christopher]

TV's Frank wrote:

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With the recent 4-disc release of music from the show, I was revisiting a number of episodes in the DVD sets.

Four-disc? I only have two. Was there a second volume I somehow missed?

This also led me to seek out the comic book series from the 90's set specifically in the animated universe, such as the aforementioned "Lost Years".

I wish I could afford to track down all the back issues of those series that I missed. I was only able to collect them piecemeal originally. And while a lot of them conflict with later DCAU continuity, there are probably a fair number that would still work.

Turtletrekker wrote:

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"On Leather Wings" was a good opener as it really established everything you need to know about the character. All of the other DCAU shows begin with "Origin Stories", but B:TAS just jumps right in with the action. C'mon, he's Batman. Does he really need an introduction?

Well, there were a couple of more practical reasons they didn't do an origin. One was that the Burton movie already covered it. The other was censorship; FOX Kids put a lot of restrictions on violence in its programming and so B:TAS had to avoid showing death. So the murder of the Waynes was only indirectly or symbolically alluded to a few times.

But we get introduction eps for the rest of the Rogues Gallery, which at first made me thing the show took place early in his career. At least two years, per "The Jokers Favor", but obviously longer when you take his history with Dick Grayson into account.

Yup. "Robin's Reckoning" establishes that he was already Batman at least 8-9 years before the B:TAS episodes featuring Robin. The ones without Robin could potentially come earlier, though.

"Nothing to Fear" The introduction to the Scarecrow had some powerful stuff, but will always be remembered by me as the ep with Kevin Conroy's delivery of the line, "I am vengence, I am the night, I am Batman!"

A line whose iconic status I hate, because it's totally wrong. Batman is not about vengeance. If he were, he would've killed Joe Chill and retired. Batman is about justice, and about trying to keep other people from having to mourn the deaths of their loved ones.

"Feat of Clay" 1 & 2-- Clunkers.

I thought they were pretty good, especially part 2. The animation in part 1 (by Akom, a generally mediocre studio) was poor, but part 2 was animated by the brilliant Tokyo Movie Shinsha and features some of the most spectacular, amazing animation ever seen on American television at that point.

"The Jokers Favor"-- The first appearance of Harley Quinn and a personal favorite of mine.

Also the first Paul Dini-scripted Joker episode, which is why the previous Joker episodes were all so lame in comparison.

"Mad As A Hatter"-- This one could have been silly, but works in 50s Dick Sprang era kind of way.

It feels much more substantial than that to me, thanks to the dark edge Dini's writing gives it and the soulful brilliance of Roddy McDowall's performance.

[TV's Frank]

Christopher wrote:

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Four-disc? I only have two. Was there a second volume I somehow missed?

You bet! There was a 2nd volume released just last month by LaLa Land Records, the label for Volume 1 back in '08. It is a 4-disc set and has music from such classic episodes as "Feat of Clay", "Heart of Ice", "Appointment in Crime Alley" and "The Demon's Quest". Check out the link below:

http://www.lalalandrecords.com/BTASV2.html

[SG-17]

The episodes with Ra's were some of my favorites. Including the one in S:TAS and BB.

I just wish that the Near-Apocalypse of '09 got some fleshing out. We have no idea what happened besides it being about Batman (with Talia on his side) against Ra's.

[Christopher]

TV's Frank wrote:

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You bet! There was a 2nd volume released just last month by LaLa Land Records, the label for Volume 1 back in '08. It is a 4-disc set and has music from such classic episodes as "Feat of Clay", "Heart of Ice", "Appointment in Crime Alley" and "The Demon's Quest".

Thanks! I've ordered it. Lots of good stuff there. (Although I hope someday we get an album release of "A Bullet for Bullock." Probably others too, but that's the big one that comes to mind.)

[byron lomax]

Another huge B:TAS fan here. I'll have to agree with the posters who disliked the style change for TNBA; the characters became a little too streamlined for my taste (even though some designs were better).

My personal favourite episode has got to be "Almost Got 'Im" - it's just so much fun to watch! There are episodes which are technically better, but that's the one I've enjoyed over and over and over again. "I threw a rock at him!"

The Batman Adventures comics were great too - especially (IMO) the first two series, by Kelley Puckett and Mike Parobeck (R.I.P.) and then Ty Templeton and Rick Burchett (with a few issues by Dini). A lot more enjoyable than the actual main-line Batman comics of the time, which were continually dominated by endless "big event" crossover stories.

[JudgeDredd]

Just want to chime in with the DCAU love. I was ecstatic when Batman Begins debuted, as it was the first live-action Batman film to focus entirely on The Batman. But still, it wasn't perfect (for me, at least) and I still kept thinking that Dini and Timm got The Batman and his world better than even Nolan.

After TDK and TDKR, I feel this way even more. Great movies, but not great Batman movies. I await the day when DC Entertainment and the WB will wake up and give the live-action franchise to Dini and Timm. Hell, they should be the guys in charge of all DC films, esp. JL. They got it right consistently over and over again. Their version of The Batman is perfect, almost better than the comics version.

Love this thread! Thanks!

[Christopher]

^Again, we shouldn't ignore the vital contribution that Alan Burnett has made, not only to the DC Animated Universe, but to other Batman and DC animated productions before and since. He was a full member of the team that made the DCAU what it was, and he really doesn't deserve to be overlooked. We should also remember that Eric Radomski was the one who co-created B:TAS with Timm.