Would Nemesis have been received better if.....

[Oso Blanco]

Nemesis would have been a better movie if the cut scenes hadn't been cut.

Nemesis would have been a better movie B4 had been Lore. Giving Data's consciousness to Lore would have left the possibility to make him the big villain of the next movie, you know ... Lore's personality somehow taking over and so on. And then it could have been him instead of Nero who went into the past, after he blew up Romulus of course!

Nemesis would have been a better movie if Shinzon had been Sela or Tom Riker or anyone else, the whole Picard clone idea didn't work for me.

Nemesis would have been a better movie if Jonathan Frakes had directed it.

Nemesis would have been a better movie if it had more Romulans.

Nemesis would have been a better movie if it had old Romulan Warbirds instead of Valdore Class ships.

[CoveTom]

Oso Blanco wrote:

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Nemesis would have been a better movie if the cut scenes hadn't been cut.

Nemesis would have been a better movie B4 had been Lore. Giving Data's consciousness to Lore would have left the possibility to make him the big villain of the next movie, you know ... Lore's personality somehow taking over and so on. And then it could have been him instead of Nero who went into the past, after he blew up Romulus of course!

Nemesis would have been a better movie if Shinzon had been Sela or Tom Riker or anyone else, the whole Picard clone idea didn't work for me.

Nemesis would have been a better movie if Jonathan Frakes had directed it.

Nemesis would have been a better movie if it had more Romulans.

Nemesis would have been a better movie if it had old Romulan Warbirds instead of Valdore Class ships.

Agreed on most counts. The cut scenes definitely needed to be included. They were most of the character moments of the film. We could have done without a few of the action sequences -- can anyone say "dune buggy"? -- in order to get those character moments in. They were important, and they would greatly enhance the film.

I also agree Jonathan Frakes would have made a much better movie than Stuart Baird. He would have certainly brought much more of a respect for Star Trek and a desire to make something other than just a mindless action film.

I agree that the Romulans should have played a more prominent role. This was build as the big movie in which the Romulans were finally going to be the adversaries, and then it ended up being about a human.

But I don't agree about including Sela, Tom Riker, or even Lore. I think there's probably too much backstory in there for a feature film. Lore maybe. You could have a line of dialog about how Lore is the prototype for Data that went horribly wrong. But Sela? There's no way to explain who she is, and why we care, in a line or two. And we don't need time in the movie devoted to explaining the backstory of Tasha Yar, "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Redemption," and "Unification".

Personally, I think the clone of Picard idea could have worked. But it should have been Patrick Stewart playing both characters. He is a good enough actor to pull it off without it being corny. And we didn't need a Data story where he also happens to be dealing with a clone. Not every movie needed a Data b-story. Really. Data could still play an important role, and even sacrifice himself in the end, without having to have his own storyline.

My only other comment is that they should find something for the ensemble to do. Unlike TOS, which is often cited as an ensemble show but really wasn't, TNG was a true ensemble show. The first three TNG movies at least made a perfunctory attempt to give the other characters besides Picard and Data something to do, and coincidentally the film that is most respected of the TNG era, First Contact, is also the one in which the ensemble had the most substantive roles. Picard can still be front and center, but there's no reason that the other characters need to be background set pieces.

[Oso Blanco]

CoveTom wrote:

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But I don't agree about including Sela, Tom Riker, or even Lore. I think there's probably too much backstory in there for a feature film. Lore maybe. You could have a line of dialog about how Lore is the prototype for Data that went horribly wrong. But Sela? There's no way to explain who she is, and why we care, in a line or two. And we don't need time in the movie devoted to explaining the backstory of Tasha Yar, "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Redemption," and "Unification".

Personally, I think the clone of Picard idea could have worked. But it should have been Patrick Stewart playing both characters. He is a good enough actor to pull it off without it being corny. And we didn't need a Data story where he also happens to be dealing with a clone. Not every movie needed a Data b-story. Really. Data could still play an important role, and even sacrifice himself in the end, without having to have his own storyline.

You're right about Sela, it would probably too complicated to explain her existence within the movie. I also agree that Patrick Stewart playing Shinzon might have saved the whole clone plot. But it would still be an odd story, that I would rather drop alltogether. I think that Lore would have been the better (and obvious) choice for the a-story, with Romulan politics as a b-story ... Shinzon as the new Romulan (not Reman) praetor, and not as Picard's clone.

[Captaindemotion]

Two roles for Patrick Stewart and for Brent Spiner? I don't know. I've always been critical of the fact that Hardy never convinced (me anyway) as a clone of Stewart. But not even William Shatner dared give himself double roles in a Trek movie...

[lurok]

Nemesis. Has one truly great Trek scene: Picard waiting for the Scimitar/ship decloaking. Other than that script and directing about on par with FC and INS. But I'm not that big a fan of the movies anyway. They all have flaws, some bigger than others.

[CoveTom]

lurok wrote:

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But I'm not that big a fan of the movies anyway. They all have flaws, some bigger than others.

I agree with that. To me, Star Trek has always worked best as a TV series. The feature film format places too many restrictions on it. A 26-episode season, which was the norm for most of Trek, in which the writers can feel free to take chances, to tell a variety of types of stories, to feature all of the actors and characters at different times, and so forth, results in an end product that is far more satisfying, IMHO.

Frankly, I think that the feature film industry has become so devoted to nothing but major blockbusters that have to follow a cookie cutter format, that television and the Internet are the only outlets where we can get real quality out of not just science fiction but entertainment in general.

[JarodRussell]

Nemesis, without any changes made, would have been a big thing between First Contact and Insurrection. The visuals would have been amazing for science fiction and fantasy between 1995 and 1998. So that would have been a good draw.

Problem is that is didn't hold a candle to the visuals of Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc...

[indolover]

Nemesis was a poor concept IMO.

The "double" Picard could have been a changeling, who post-Dominion War broke from the Great Link and wanted revenge against the Federation. Or the "evil" Picard from the mirror universe (as contrast to the good Picard from "our" universe).

[Captaindemotion]

^Yeah, a mirror universe movie could have worked. Actually, I'm surprised that they haven't thought of that before. Everyone knows the basic idea (think 'Evil Cartman' with a goatee in South Park).

They would have by no means have been tied to the DS9 take on things - this could have been a different MU, more like the one seen in the original series episode, Mirror Mirror.

[Bry_Sinclair]

Jeyl wrote:

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- They wanted a Wrath of Khan like movie with a dark villain whom Picard has some connection with. Didn't we already have that with First Contact?

They also had that in GEN as well, with the Duras sisters coming back. If they wanted a villian who had connection to Picard, they should have had Patrick Steward in the role. I don't mind Tom Hardy, but he's trying to play a darker facet of an already well established character, he never really had much of a chance from the beginning.

Jeyl wrote:

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- Picard/Data centered story. While Picard and Data certainly took he center stage in the previous movies, there was some attempt at making the other characters have a relevant role in the story. Nemesis didn't bother trying.

The crew should have been split right from the start, with Riker and Troi already married and onboard the Titan, which would plan an important role throughout (perhaps something involving Ambassador Worf?). I mean would it really have taken Riker and Troi five years to finally get hitched after getting back together at the end of INS?

Jeyl wrote:

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- Too much to the point and nothing more. The bad guy is the villain and we must stop him. That's basically it. There isn't much of anything going on for the story make us care for what's at stake.

Why would he want to attack Earth? A planet he has as much connection to as Bajor? Yes his donor was from there, but it was Romulus that created him, abandoned him, then abused him. Surely he should have take his vengence out on them rather than travelling all the way to Earth. More should have been done with his back story, show him going through hell at the hands of the Romulans so that you could sympathise with what he went through.

Jeyl wrote:

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- Random scenes that add nothing. Dune Buggy is ok I guess, but a Dune Buggy chase with guns and explosions that is never brought up again is sheer story telling incompetence. We could have cut right back to the Enterprise when B4 first responds to Data after picking up his head and there wouldn't be a sense of something missing from the audience.

That was a pointless scene, with pointless aliens, who had no connection to anything at all. Had both side been looking for the Soong-Type android, and they faced off against a platoon or twelve of Reman shock troops, it might have had a greater sense of involvement in the plot and greater danger for our heroes.

Jeyl wrote:

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- Ignoring major character points. Shinzon always goes on and on about how he and Picard are so alike and how Picard is capable of doing all the things he's done. Picard is told by Data that events in ones life shape the person you are. So, what event do we know about that helped shape Picard's life when he was that young? Losing his heart. Shinzon still has his real heart. When Picard tries to reason with him once more, he not only doesn't bring up his artificial heart, but says "you're heart is the same as mine". They had the perfect opportunity to let Picard not only use something from the series, but also give a tangible reason why Picard is who he is as a result of bring brought up differently than Shinzon. He could have told Shinzon that he still has his real heart and that he can still choose a path that won't take all of that away.

Those speeches about how they're different because of the lives they've led, and how each would be like his double if he'd lived that life...well duh! Individuals aren't just nature, nurture has a huge impact on their lives and development. It's basic sociology and they made such a big thing about it, when it really never needed to be.

Jeyl wrote:

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- Make it accessible to new comers. This is a big one. How is it that a film which is focused on the last voyages of the TNG crew is being made as a film that is accessible to new comers? This is the end of a near 15 year journey, and they're trying to make it like none of those 15 years ever mattered. That is wrong.

I understand that bums on seats are needed to pay for the film and all the work that went into it, but like you say, its the final chapter of an already well-established saga. Trek in general and TNG in particular has a huge fan base (the hard core ones as well as the occassional viewers), so numbers are already there--it may not be the biggest grossing film if they'd made it one last 'hurah' for the series and the fans, but at least it would have left them satisfied and content. What's wrong with slipping in a few jokes or lines that only fans will get? Not a damn thing

[Temis the Vorta]

BillJ wrote:

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Nemesis would've been better received if it had been a better movie.

However, I think the TNG characters were out of steam by that point, and none of the other shows had gained pop culture traction. What JJ Abrams did was really the only way you could go with the movies - reboot as gently as possible.

And I agree with CoveTom - Star Trek is designed for TV. Movies will always be too short, simplistic and action focused, because thats how movies must be in order to make money

While yes Star Trek does work better on TV they still can do good movie outings and have it be entertaining. Star Trek IV is one of my favorites, and it doesn't have a real (maniacal laugh type) villain. They also give the entire crew something interesting to do throughout the movie. If Star Trek would just stop remaking the same movie (TWOK) over and over they might could find their way.

[CaptainStoner]

I tend to think timing is a bigger factor than subjective notions of quality. The two biggest grossing trek films have been Tmp and the reboot. Neither of those films strike me as particularly better than nemesis, especially '09. They all have ridiculously dumb plot elements and missed opporunities. But what none of the more succesful trek films had was a tired out franchise. Or a 3 hour LOTR blockbuster to go up against.

[TenLubak]

I think if the wore the Deep Space Nine uniforms I would have liked Nemesis better. And I would have liked it better if they didn't do alot of stuff that didn't make that much sense. Theres too much to list.
But it could've helped it alot if it came out when INS did i think because it would follow in the same dark vein as FC when the series was still hot and ppl would like it more. Its very important to me that the general public likes Nemesis and makes a lot of money so they wont call me dork and i then have to tuck my star trek picard in generations tng movie uniform (w new com badge design!) keychain into my backpack as an insecure child. Man i wish this film did better. It would have really raised my self esteem being on a winning team and like liking something cool. would have made me feel like a belonged to group of something bigger. And it would have made paramount pictures alot of money so they could remove all the grafetti from their theme parks like from the railing of the station house of the Grizzely roller coaster at Paramount's Kings Dominion! I hate how they didnt put any money into the upkeep of thier theme parks!


- Just put the data death back in INS instead of this one since it prolly made more sense there anyway. Because he basically comitted suicide in Nememis. Data obviously just gave up on life sinec he was basically Enstien like smart, working as a ferry ship captain. He was so just depressed and ended it all. thats what i gathered from his death. I think the crew knew it too which it why the ending was so damned morbid and no one spoke much. They realized they had made his life hell and he couldnt take it anymore. Maybe if they werent such pompas jerks all the time I wouldnt have blown himself up. or maybe if they gave him a duty that was challenging instead of plopping him down at the Conn. eh who knows.

Nemesis was cool and pretty much what I wanted as a casual fan who 18 and smoked weed all day and droped out of college. then i saw it and realized i didnt like it. So then i gave it back. (Literally sold a used movie i got for 4 dollars back to Electronics Boutique in white marsh mall for 50 cents store credit. I was able to buy Ernest Rides Again on VHS with my trade in !)
Later when i grew up i watched it again to see if maybe since my head had cleared that I'd missed something. No actually where some scenes were nice Picard talking to shinzon, and ...well i liked that scene. It was pretty and it almost like the movie was going to have some depth and meaning. The acting was good, and if this picard shinzon relation ship would have been explored more it would have been better.