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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 16 2012, 06:14 PM   #46
blueziggy
Lieutenant
 
Re: Cause and Effect

the explosion of the enterprise d creates an anti-time distortion which travels back in time to pick up the bozeman. bringing the bozeman forward to collide with the the enterprise causing said distortion. a paradox.

if this didnt stop there would have been an anti-time anomaly at earth when the first protein is formed.

so by not destroying the ship in cause and effect and by destroying the ship in all good things the human race survives.



and now my head hurts....
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Old August 16 2012, 06:30 PM   #47
Enterprise is Great
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Re: Cause and Effect

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
An odd bit of "logic" occurs in this episode. It's suggested that they reverse course to prevent getting caught in the loop, Riker shoots this idea down saying it might be what gets them stuck in the first place.

Ummm.. No, Commander. Since the first time through there was nothing to cause the Enterprise to reverse course it's not what causes it to get stuck in the loop. Reversing course would be the right thing to do.
Doesn't something very similar happen in Time Squared, where they decide to stay on course instead of divert? It certainly rings a bell.
That's correct. I just saw that last week so it's still fresh in my mind.
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Old August 17 2012, 03:55 AM   #48
Tiberius
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Re: Cause and Effect

Timo wrote: View Post
But it would take the same length of time for the Bozeman to go through one entire loop as it did for the Enterprise.
Why?
Because each ship needs the other in order to complete the loop. So neither ship could go through the ,loop more than the other.

There's no inherent need for this as such, as the loop is taking place in the 24th century.
For the Enterprise, but not the Bozeman. The Bozeman spent most of the loop in the past, and only came to the 24th C at the end.

The number of loops needs to be the same, but the length need not, as the Bozeman isn't within the "zone of influence" of the loop for most of the time the E-D is. It would be a bit different if the Bozeman were a regular starship from the 24th century...
Why would that make a difference?

As for Riker's decision not to turn back, it's certainly illogical. It's also somewhat consistent for his character to suggest such weird things - and for Picard to accept Riker's recommendation over that of others in situations where there is no objective order of preference. Which makes it a bit odd that Picard initially favors Data's recommendation in dealing with the collision itself!

Timo Saloniemi
I gotta agree with you there. Turning back would have been the first thing I would have done.
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Old August 17 2012, 03:57 AM   #49
Tiberius
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Re: Cause and Effect

Timo wrote: View Post
...Then again, when you factor in how supernaturally strong the blow-out of a small compartment's atmosphere is in "Disaster", perhaps there's something to Data's suggestion after all?

I guess that we could speculate on the lines of there being enough power to open the rolling door by rolling it (as opposed to, say, detonating explosive bolts) - from which it would follow that there would be enough power and control to do tricks with artificial gravity, which is a notoriously low-power-consumption application (not to mention still working). Perhaps the air was not merely let to leak out, but was shoved out at significant nozzle velocity?

Timo Saloniemi
Actually, if the rush of air was really so strong, it should have torn Bev and Geordi's arms off in Disaster.

Beats me why they didn't just try BOTH ideas in C&E...
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Old August 17 2012, 07:31 AM   #50
Timo
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Re: Cause and Effect

Because each ship needs the other in order to complete the loop. So neither ship could go through the ,loop more than the other.
"More" in this case referring to the number of the cycles, not their length. In those seventeen days, the E-D needs to have X cycles with the length of 17/X days each, but the Bozeman only needs to have X cycles of unknown length - because for most of the time the E-D is undergoing a cycle, the Bozeman is leisurely cruising in the 23rd century and not repeating anything. The Bozeman only participates in the cycle after arriving in the 24th century! Before that arrival, there is just an empty volume of space that is doing the cycle in lieu of the Bozeman, so to say.

Actually, if the rush of air was really so strong, it should have torn Bev and Geordi's arms off in Disaster.
Well, "Disaster" featured a rush of air that was unnaturally strong, so it's a good thing it wasn't portrayed as strong enough to tear their arms off. But "Cause and Effect" could plausibly feature a rush of air that our heroes manipulate into even greater strength, with the tricks they are known to possess (it even says "VARIABLE GRAVITY" on the wall of the shuttlebay!).

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 17 2012, 02:28 PM   #51
Tiberius
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Re: Cause and Effect

Timo wrote: View Post
...for most of the time the E-D is undergoing a cycle, the Bozeman is leisurely cruising in the 23rd century and not repeating anything. The Bozeman only participates in the cycle after arriving in the 24th century!
How do you know?
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Old August 18 2012, 02:49 PM   #52
Timo
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Re: Cause and Effect

The cycle is known to affect only the E-D. The cycle does not affect the UFP timebase beacons, or Earth, or Vulcan. The default assumption is that the cycle does not affect things unless otherwise indicated. And the Bozeman in the 23rd century would be well removed from the known region of influence, arguably even better than Earth or Vulcan.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 19 2012, 04:42 AM   #53
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Cause and Effect

And there's your problem. You are making an assumption.

Since the thing involves a funnel through time, we have no way of knowing what will be affected.
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Old August 19 2012, 07:10 AM   #54
Agent Richard07
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Re: Cause and Effect

T'Girl wrote: View Post
...the Enterprise Dee ended up out of sync with time by 17.3 days, and the crew started figuring thing out a few loops before and devised a way out.

The USS Boseman was in the loops for 90 fukking years, what kind of clown show did Captain Bateson have aboard his ship anyway?

I mean, I understand that the Enterprise Dee is the flagship, and best of the best, yap yap yap. But the Boseman is a Starfleet vessel, they couldn't do anything in 90 years?
I thought of that too. I was going to suggest that maybe each iteration of the Bozeman's loop wasn't long enough for anyone to figure out anything, but that explanation doesn't add up either thanks to a lot of the discussion here.
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Old August 19 2012, 11:44 AM   #55
Timo
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Re: Cause and Effect

And there's your problem. You are making an assumption.
Not my problem. Assuming this explains why it was up to Picard's team to devise a way out of the loop. Assuming the opposite, again without much basis, creates an unnecessary problem with the plot.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 19 2012, 12:04 PM   #56
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Cause and Effect

First of all, we have no way to know that Bateson's crew wasn't also developing a way.

Secondly, since we saw the Bozeman on each trip through the loop and since each loop was slightly different, it happened several times for the Bozeman too. Since the Bozeman appeared once and once only for each time the Enterprise went through the loop, it makes sense that the Bozeman went through the same number of loops as the Enterprise.
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Old August 19 2012, 04:36 PM   #57
Dick_Valentine
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Re: Cause and Effect

Perhaps the best teaser in all of Trek...

When I was a kid my dad would put on TNG and I'd half heatedly watch while playing along with my toys or doing something else.

After the Ent-D exploded and the credits rolled we both sat there looking at each other with a kind of "WTF?" look on our faces....
We almost expected the next 40 mins to be silent pictures of the crew in Black and White with their birth and death dates at the bottom!

The rest of the ep surprisingly did live up to such an amazing teaser (though a bit of a shame the actual explosion effect does look like a firework inside a tonka toy model of the Ent-D instead of the tumultuous explosion you'd expect a ship of that size...I wonder if this'll change in the remastered like a few of the explosions have been doing in Series 1? )

Though the resolution being 3? Because Riker has 3 pips?
But....Data has 3 pips too?
Yeah, one of them is blacked out but it's there!
Crazy to ensure the survival of 2 starships on an easily confusable bit of information!

This ep was so sucessful you can tell the writing staff sat down each year to try and "sequel" it with the Romulan Freeze-time episode and the Multi-Ent-D episode too.

Never quite pulled it off though, this was the best of all the time travel eps, imo.
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Old August 19 2012, 04:39 PM   #58
Dick_Valentine
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Re: Cause and Effect

Sorry to double-post but my browser didn't recognise the last page until after I replied.

With reference to the above discussion it's obvious there's a time-portal element to the time-loop.

My hypothesis is that the Bozeman, without the Ent-D being present, would've found itself 90 years ahead anyway, whereas it was the collision with the Enterprise and all that anti-matter exploding in proximity to the time portal that caused the time loop.

So ensuring the loop didn't happen didn't completely close the time portal, or if it did, it was too late for the Bozeman who still would've been trapped out of time whatever happened, it was just the difference between living in the 24th century or exploding in it.
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Old August 19 2012, 06:35 PM   #59
T'Girl
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Re: Cause and Effect

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
So ensuring the loop didn't happen didn't completely close the time portal, or if it did, it was too late for the Bozeman who still would've been trapped out of time whatever happened, it was just the difference between living in the 24th century or exploding in it.
The Enterprise Cee went back through it's time portal, if there was no destruction of the Boseman, would it have been able of returning to it's own time?

And (time loop to the side) was the Boseman destroyed following the collision with the Enterprise? By the time the Enterprise exploded, the two ships would have been widely separated, and the Boseman didn't seem as badly damaged by the collision.

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Old September 5 2012, 09:15 AM   #60
Sexy Human
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Re: Cause and Effect

Great episodes. Because its a great cast.

Can you imagine the crew of enterprise pulling this off? No. It would be boring as shit.

I can picture it now.

Tucker: "Keep your shirt on Luietenant".
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