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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 15 2012, 01:47 AM   #16
Andymator
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Re: Cause and Effect

I always assumed that the Enterprise was the one in the loop, not the Bozeman. They were just displaced to a certain point in time in the future that happened to fall into that loop.
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Old August 15 2012, 03:49 AM   #17
Trekker4747
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Re: Cause and Effect

That's how I took it, the Bozeman was simply shifted forward into time through some phenomenon. (Oddly, a phenomenon they didn't seem aware of or tried to avoid.)

While the Enterprise was stuck in the localized temporal loop.
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Old August 15 2012, 07:21 AM   #18
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Re: Cause and Effect

Picard: "The Enterprise has been caught in temporal causality loop, and I suspect that something similar may have happened to you."



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Old August 15 2012, 07:53 AM   #19
Timo
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Re: Cause and Effect

Clearly, he suspected wrong.

But even if the Bozeman had been in a time loop, she would naturally have been there only for the same number of repeats as the E-D. Which might amount to the same number of days - but more logically to just the same number of repeats times the number of seconds the ship existed in the 24th century, which gives a total of a couple of minutes at most.

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Old August 15 2012, 04:02 PM   #20
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Re: Cause and Effect

But what if part of the Bozeman's loop involved bringing it through time from whenever it had left?
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Old August 15 2012, 05:19 PM   #21
R. Star
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Re: Cause and Effect

Trying to hold this episode up to logic is an exercise in futility.
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Old August 15 2012, 05:30 PM   #22
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Re: Cause and Effect

The Bozeman had to have been brought forward in time in some fashion or another and, seemingly, by willingly going through the vortex. It may have only been in the loop for the same number of days as the Enterprise and not the 70-some years but at some point the Bozeman had to have traveled forward to the 24c.
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Old August 16 2012, 12:54 AM   #23
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Re: Cause and Effect

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Captain Frasier: "How many years were we caught in that loop?"
Picard: "About ninety years."
This joke made me think of something, the Enterprise Dee ended up out of sync with time by 17.3 days, and the crew started figuring thing out a few loops before and devised a way out.

The USS Boseman was in the loops for 90 fukking years, what kind of clown show did Captain Bateson have aboard his ship anyway?

I mean, I understand that the Enterprise Dee is the flagship, and best of the best, yap yap yap. But the Boseman is a Starfleet vessel, they couldn't do anything in 90 years?

The Bozeman was only in the loop as long as the Enterprise was (17.3 days).
Bozeman is flying around space TNG-time minus 90 years. It gets pulled into the vortex 90 years into its future, hits the E-D, the E-D blows up (possibly causing the vortex, starting the loop over.
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Old August 16 2012, 01:07 AM   #24
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Re: Cause and Effect

When the loop breaks, 17 days have passed, which means it was just a local phenomenon and the rest of the universe wasn't affected at all. Does that mean that another ship coming from the normal stream of time could have suddenly crossed the path of the Enterprise?
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Old August 16 2012, 02:01 AM   #25
Trekker4747
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Re: Cause and Effect

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
When the loop breaks, 17 days have passed, which means it was just a local phenomenon and the rest of the universe wasn't affected at all. Does that mean that another ship coming from the normal stream of time could have suddenly crossed the path of the Enterprise?
I suspect that any other ship in the area would have been effected by the space-time distortion. So when the triggering event occurs (the Enterprise blowing up) everything in the sector resets to how it was the day or so prior.

Yeah, really, under scrutiny Space Phenomenon McGuffin doesn't make much sense.
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Old August 16 2012, 02:35 AM   #26
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Re: Cause and Effect

R. Star wrote: View Post
Trying to hold this episode up to logic is an exercise in futility.
This.
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Old August 16 2012, 02:39 AM   #27
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Re: Cause and Effect

In the book 'Ship of the Line', they try to explain what happened from the Bozeman POV.

The ship was in a fight with a klingon ship. Going badly, the Bozeman began looking for a place to hide. They found what appeared to be a 'cloud' of energy. Being tailed by the klingons, they went in. It appeared to be some kind of localized distortion. They suddenly lost power and without warning they had passed through the cloud. The klingons were gone. They begin to figure out what had happened to them, getting as far as stating it was a temporal distortion when sensors indicated another ship, a 'moving mountain'. Without power, they could not move. From their POV, the Enterprise D had suddenly veered off, narrowly avoiding a collision. They never experienced a time loop.

Hope this helps. I dug around for a while looking for this book. Glad I still have it. A pretty good story, I think.
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Old August 16 2012, 03:38 AM   #28
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Re: Cause and Effect

dg1379 wrote: View Post
In the book 'Ship of the Line', they try to explain what happened from the Bozeman POV.

The ship was in a fight with a klingon ship. Going badly, the Bozeman began looking for a place to hide. They found what appeared to be a 'cloud' of energy. Being tailed by the klingons, they went in. It appeared to be some kind of localized distortion. They suddenly lost power and without warning they had passed through the cloud. The klingons were gone. They begin to figure out what had happened to them, getting as far as stating it was a temporal distortion when sensors indicated another ship, a 'moving mountain'. Without power, they could not move. From their POV, the Enterprise D had suddenly veered off, narrowly avoiding a collision. They never experienced a time loop.

Hope this helps. I dug around for a while looking for this book. Glad I still have it. A pretty good story, I think.
That makes some sense. Though "locally" -from the POV of what we saw- they were in a time-loop somehow initiated by the Enterprise's explosion. From their perspective there was no loop, from the Enterprise's (and the rest of the universe's) there was.
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Old August 16 2012, 08:51 AM   #29
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Re: Cause and Effect

If the Bozeman only underwent the events once, then from their POV, there should have been at least two starships E-D there simultaneously: one they collided with, and another they avoided. (Or would have, if not for having collided anyway!)

Clearly, the Bozeman also experienced at least two distinct iterations of the events, one survivable, the other not. They may have been sucked into the future just once, but once there, they sometimes collided, sometimes avoided - for exactly as many times as the E-D did.

And the clock necessarily read the same every time, or the E-D would have noticed something amiss. One really wonders when and how our heroes managed to get out of the "time pocket" where the clock was stuck repeating the same couple of days (or, for the Bozeman, the same couple of seconds).

Or perhaps we can argue that time didn't get stuck - our heroes simply did not enjoy constant access to this fancy "Federation timebase" and its informative beacons. Quite possibly, time was flowing normally everywhere outside the hulls of the E-D and the Bozeman, and the phenomenon just created intact and time-retarded copies of each ship every time after the loss of both. But that would mean that the Typhon Expanse would stop spitting out new Bozemans once the collision was avoided, which is a bit odd: why should the tiny collision dictate the behavior of the vast phenomenon?

The idea that time went looping within a specific volume of space is IMHO the most consistent one. Once the collision was avoided, our heroes could leave that volume of space (within which a looping phenomenon might still exist) and ask the nearest beacon what time it really was. They could have done that simply by not sailing to Typhon while within the loop, of course - but they second-guessed themselves out of that correct solution too many times in a row.

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Old August 16 2012, 10:42 AM   #30
Trekker4747
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Re: Cause and Effect

An odd bit of "logic" occurs in this episode. It's suggested that they reverse course to prevent getting caught in the loop, Riker shoots this idea down saying it might be what gets them stuck in the first place.

Ummm.. No, Commander. Since the first time through there was nothing to cause the Enterprise to reverse course it's not what causes it to get stuck in the loop. Reversing course would be the right thing to do.
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