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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 12 2012, 08:11 PM   #1441
R. Star
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Really twists like this are what makes Dukat the best villain in Trek. He's multi-layered for sure and doesn't fit the cookie cutter villain of the week cliche by any means. If you asked him, he's the hero of his own story. He's the guy who just honestly doesn't get why people don't want to be ruled by his benevolent hand. When he was working with the good guys in seasons 4-5, it wasn't out of a path to redemption more than it was just in his self-interest. So when he sees an oppurtunity to grab power again, and destroy his enemies, it's only natural he grabs at it. This will have lasting consequences the rest of the series.

The UBC(I like the acronym) was certainly a shock, but in the end poorly used. DS9 certainly did have the same flaw as many week to week shows that the plot often doesn't have an overall direction regarding specifics like this. But the show is willing to take chances, rock the boat and not willing to settle for the status quo. So I'm usually more forgiving towards DS9's plot holes than I am say Voyager's.

The system destroying bomb, I dunno... I think it was made of the same stuff that the terrorist in that season 1 episode used to try and blow up the wormhole. It was implied the stuff was rare and hard to get. So I'd hope that's just the case. It was a climatic moment when you're expecting the Cardassian and Jem'Hadar fleets to arrive only to have the whole thing be a trap though.

The escape... was very convienent. Bashir will even get called on this in a future episode when his loyalty is in question. I dunno, I would have found it more convincing if they snuck out through the walls and stole a Jem'Hadar ship in a firefight or something than the comm relay transport to our runabout which is still very convienently in orbit thing. It still would have had holes either way, and there was no one else to rescue them. But as I said, DS9 tries and isn't afraid to shake things up, so you can forgive plot holes now and again.

It was a good episode and a promise of things to come with Dukat's poorly veiled threat at the end. I did like how it was even "You foiled my plot... but I'll get you next time Gadge-- I mean Sisko! Next time!" Now only if they just had a Cardassian cat for Dukat to be maliciously petting when he said that. :P
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Old August 12 2012, 09:48 PM   #1442
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Dukat ends up right where he should be at the end of "By Inferno's Light": in the top echelon of a horrible group of bad-guys. Just where I love to have him -- so I can hate him for good reason. (I didn't like the middle seasons as much, when Dukat was more of a "good guy".) I wonder what the average Cardassian thinks of it all -- joining the Dominion and Dukat being in charge versus the old civilian Detapa Council that Dukat use to work for?

Wonderful that the relationship between Worf and the real Martok starts out on a better footing than between Worf and the changeling Martok back in "Way of the Warrior". Here they really hit it off. Sometimes almost too much. Like it seems that Martok is almost gushing to be in Worf's presence. But probably that was just him playing it up to build up Worf's confidence. And Martok will be around on the station now. Yet another great DS9 secondary character.

I love the scenes dealing with Garak's claustrophobia. (Big shock, right, liking Garak scenes.) Not only was it a great moment for Garak's good qualities like determination and self-sacrifice to shine, it also allowed us a chance to see that Garak really can't shut up, even when he's only got a light and himself to talk to.

Loved seeing the Romulans show up to help. Maybe it's the beginning of a real partnership, "the enemy of my enemy" and all that. (And I'll try not to read too much into the fact that the Klingons and Federation are now back together only because the Dominion and Cardassians have joined forces.)

As TheGodBen mentions, I love how there was a hugh Dominion fleet poised to attack DS9 in this episode -- twice -- and yet no attack happens. After all this build-up, the story suddenly goes off in a different path. You're expecting to see some great battle footage, but then the story gets resolved some other way. I loved that aspect of the writing on DS9 -- always challenging our expectations as viewers.

But it also says something about the Dominion in-universe. They probably could have battled those 2 times, and probably done very well. But they chose to do things differently: gain allies (in the Cardassians); try to use subterfuge and undercover operatives to gain a military advantage versus direct confrontation. It really let's you know that the Dominion is cunning -- and they are in this for the long game, they're willing to wait until their hand is strong.
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Old August 13 2012, 12:07 AM   #1443
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

One of the things I remember about this two parter, is when the Romulan's show up to stand with the UFP and Klingon Empire.
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Old August 13 2012, 03:35 AM   #1444
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the things I remember about this two parter, is when the Romulan's show up to stand with the UFP and Klingon Empire.
Which is really out of character for the Romulans when you stop and think about that for a moment.
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Old August 13 2012, 06:58 PM   #1445
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

R. Star wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the things I remember about this two parter, is when the Romulan's show up to stand with the UFP and Klingon Empire.
Which is really out of character for the Romulans when you stop and think about that for a moment.
Well we know the Romulans aren't above making an alliance with the Klingons, even if it was about a century ago. They've also been the most aggressive in ways towards the Dominion.

For example:

-Striking against the Founder home world (even if it was initiated/controlled by an imposter)

-Equipping the Federation (of all factions) with a cloaking device upon one of their most powerful ships (the Defiant) to spy on them, though one could argue that they'd rather let the Federation do the leg work here.

-They plotted to destroy the wormhole once (in 'Visionary'), risking the ire of the Federation to ensure that the Dominion couldn't reach the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

If anything, it seems to make sense that the Romulans were acting in character, despite their usual antagonistic stance towards the Federation.
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Old August 13 2012, 07:30 PM   #1446
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

SilentP wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the things I remember about this two parter, is when the Romulan's show up to stand with the UFP and Klingon Empire.
Which is really out of character for the Romulans when you stop and think about that for a moment.
Well we know the Romulans aren't above making an alliance with the Klingons, even if it was about a century ago. They've also been the most aggressive in ways towards the Dominion.

For example:

-Striking against the Founder home world (even if it was initiated/controlled by an imposter)

-Equipping the Federation (of all factions) with a cloaking device upon one of their most powerful ships (the Defiant) to spy on them, though one could argue that they'd rather let the Federation do the leg work here.

-They plotted to destroy the wormhole once (in 'Visionary'), risking the ire of the Federation to ensure that the Dominion couldn't reach the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

If anything, it seems to make sense that the Romulans were acting in character, despite their usual antagonistic stance towards the Federation.
In addition to the fact, that they made it clear when they showed up, they weren't there as Federation Allies, but, ratehr they were there for their own benefit, to stop the threat before it could come to their front door step
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Old August 13 2012, 07:33 PM   #1447
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^"Better to deal with the devil you know..."
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Old August 13 2012, 09:43 PM   #1448
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

R. Star wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the things I remember about this two parter, is when the Romulan's show up to stand with the UFP and Klingon Empire.
Which is really out of character for the Romulans when you stop and think about that for a moment.
True, which is why it stands out because it is so unexpected.
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Old August 14 2012, 05:08 AM   #1449
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

When it seemed like an invasion was imminent, the Romulans were willing to join the fight to keep the Dominion on the other side of the galaxy.



Both are totally in character I think.
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Old August 14 2012, 06:05 AM   #1450
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

InklingStar wrote: View Post
When it seemed like an invasion was imminent, the Romulans were willing to join the fight to keep the Dominion on the other side of the galaxy.



Both are totally in character I think.
The Romulans almost always manipulate things from behind the scenes only directly involving themselves as a last resort.

The Dominion, who they acknowledge as a threat and the Federation, their cold warriors, fighting each other should if anything make them pleased. Both sides would be weakening each other and they stand in place to be able to pick up the pieces from such a destructive conflict.
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Old August 14 2012, 06:19 AM   #1451
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm sure the Romulans want everyone to think that they always manipulate things from behind the scenes. It's much easier than actually having to manipulate things from behind the scenes. Making the enemy paranoid is probably just SOP for the Romulans.

Anyway, the Romulans would have to recognize that after the destruction of the Klingons and the Federation (and the assimilation of the Cardassians into the Dominion) that they'd be next on the Dominion's hit list, and that they'd have no back-up afterwards. Besides, as allies of the Federation, they have a chance to recruit and place agents and observe Starfleet tactics for the post-war hostilities.
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Old August 14 2012, 09:20 AM   #1452
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I love this two parter. I loved that it followed up Garak and Tain's storyline, but the way it pulled the rug out from everyone by putting the Cardassians in bed with the Dominion was inspired. Nothing's the same anymore.
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Old August 18 2012, 08:12 PM   #1453
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I like the idea, and I like that Sisko went a little bit villainous in this episode (I am a fan of Breaking Bad, after all ), it's just that I think the execution in this episode was terrible. Poisoning a planet is a huge deal, Sisko should probably be spending the rest of his life in a penal colony in New Zealand for what he did, and if the episode wasn't willing to show how he got off the hook then they probably shouldn't have sent him to such an extreme action.

I basically agree.

The core idea is good, and I like the dynamic between Sisko and Eddington.

But... As is occasionally the case on DS9, you can feel that the writers want to go to a dark place with the characters but aren't always really ready to do it. Or they want to do it, but then feel the need to immediately undo it.

I still enjoy the episode for the core material, but it has some really obvious problems, especially the end.
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Old August 18 2012, 08:28 PM   #1454
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Re the Romulans: if I recall correctly, Admiral Hansen said that they were considering opening talks with the Romulans during BOBW, which is sorta indirect precedence for their appearance here.

As for the runabout: I agree it's a plothole. You can try to rectify it by arguing that it shows the Dominion's arrogance, but I'm sure not I buy that. (And I doubt it was the writers' intention.)

On the other hand, though, you could argue that the runabout is one of various hints dropped throughout the series that the Dominion is decaying.

Off the top of my head:
-they didn't know about the wormhole, and weren't expecting the Federation to show up for centuries (nor were they expecting Odo to show up)
-multiple instances of rogue Jem'Hadar
-the fact that they didn't think to strip the asteroid's facilities of its electronics, thereby allowing prisoners to send out messages not once, but twice.
-the total mission failure of the crashing Jem'Hadar ship in "The Ship"; seriously, a vessel carrying a changeling suffers mechanical failure and crashes? Far from Dominion space, no less.
-Eris's lock. You couldn't have put something fancy-looking inside that takes Quark longer to figure out than the time it took to get back to the station?
-Weyoun 6

I doubt it was intentional, but if you choose to read into it, it begins to look like the Dominion is not what it once was, despite its illusions to the contrary.
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Old August 20 2012, 05:34 PM   #1455
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Doctor Bashir, I Presume (**½)

The writers sure have had a thing for shocking revelations recently, haven't they? All in all, this one is probably the most controversial, it completely changes the way we view a major character we thought we knew for four and a half seasons, and it requires a selective interpretation of earlier episodes in order to work. Some like the revelation, some dislike it, some hate it.

Personally, I like it, but I don't like the way it wasn't planned out in advance, and reading the background information makes me dislike the way the writers handled the situation with Siddig. Actors can get deeply involved with their roles sometimes, throwing in a game-changer like this for the character of Bashir without even consulting the actor seems like a douchey thing to do. But overall, I think that it was a net positive thing for the character, and gave him some interesting material in this episode as well as future ones. Genetic engineering is an interesting subject that Star Trek rarely touches upon, making a main character a genetically engineered individual allows the show to explore some of those subjects in greater detail. But with all that being said, it's far too late in the series to just randomly throw such a huge revelation onto an established character. It doesn't pass the smell test, it's something I have to force myself to accept because I like the concept, it doesn't come across naturally.

As an episode, it's quite enjoyable. There's a lot of good banter in this one, and Robert Picardo lending his talents to DS9 for an episode is very welcome. And it was nice to see Dr Kenneth H Shmully again, even if it wasn't the real K-Shmull. The Rom/Leeta stuff got a bit annoying (Just ask him out, already!) But Robert Picardo helped out there too. In fact, Robert Picardo should have just jumped ship and joined the DS9 cast, that would have been ideal.

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