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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 9 2012, 03:53 AM   #31
Harvey
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

I wonder if the initial outlines for "Where No Man Has Gone Before" mention Kirk or Pike. The first draft teleplay was submitted May 27, 1965, but there were story outlines submitted before that (I just flipped through them a week ago at UCLA, but my focus at the time was on other things, so I didn't notice).

Actually, the finding aid for those papers indicates there are memos from early April in the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" folders, which suggests that the episode may have been outlined before Kirk was on the drawing board. I'll have to take a look at some point -- unless someone else here has access to these materials.
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Old August 9 2012, 04:08 AM   #32
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Well, again, "Kirk" was at the bottom of a long list of suggestions as of May 18, so in the outline it could just as easily have been January, Flagg, Drake, Christopher, Thorpe, Richard, Patrick, Raintree, Boone, Hudson, Timber, Hamilton, Hannibal, Neville, or North. (Note that we did get a Captain Christopher in "Tomorrow is Yesterday," and the original lead character of Roddenberry's Earth: Final Conflict was William Boone.) Although I think there's a good chance that the early outlines just called him "Captain." The Unseen Elements page says that a lot of the supporting characters in the WNMHGB first-draft script are nameless and referred to just by rank/position, so it stands to reason that Peeples would've done the same in the outline.
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Old August 9 2012, 05:45 AM   #33
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Some more of the young Shatner.

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Old August 9 2012, 07:44 PM   #34
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
I think it's difficult to judge from "The Cage" alone how Pike would have worked as a character in contrast to Kirk. Remember, at the beginning of "The Cage," Pike is coming off a major event in which several of his crewmembers were killed. He's naturally upset, and he's doubting his own ability to make good decisions. But that's not an indication that Pike is always a gloomy, brooding character. It is a reaction to a specific incident, which is what Boyce tries to make him see.

Then, for most of the rest of the episode, Pike is dealing with an extremely serious situation in which he is a prisoner and having his mind manipulated. Naturally, he's going to be rather serious during this situation.

But by the end of the episode, Pike's attitude has changed. When he banters with Boyce on the bridge at the end, he's rejuvenated and recharged and ready to move on to the next mission. Had we seen the character again, he might have been far more upbeat and outgoing than what we saw in "The Cage". One episode is simply not enough to judge by.
Yes, exactly. Pilots are often more self-contained and TV-movie-like than regular run episodes, and so with "The Cage." Here the central character had kind of a psychological dilemma and didn't know whether he wanted to continue with the life he was leading. After his experiences in the episode, he seems to be more at peace and, of course, ready for more adventures.

I like Jeffrey Hunter as an actor, he gives a very effective foundation to Martin and counterpoint to John Wayne in The Searchers. Sergeant Rutledge as mentioned above is really good, too. But in the performances I've seen he doesn't show much of a looser, joking, lighter side comparable to how Shatner is, so I think the captain character would have evolved differently if he'd kept the role. Which would probably have been fine, we'd never have known any different.

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Old August 9 2012, 08:37 PM   #35
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yes, exactly. Pilots are often more self-contained and TV-movie-like than regular run episodes, and so with "The Cage." Here the central character had kind of a psychological dilemma and didn't know whether he wanted to continue with the life he was leading. After his experiences in the episode, he seems to be more at peace and, of course, ready for more adventures.
When you put it that way, it sounds exactly like "Emissary." If we only knew Benjamin Sisko from the pilot episode, we'd probably think he was a pretty grim, morose figure as well.
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Old August 11 2012, 06:57 PM   #36
Matt S
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Side note, this thread got me to wondering about Hunter; I knew he died young, but this was from the Wiki:

While in Spain to film the Chicago Mafia story ¡Viva América! (1969), Hunter was injured in an on-set explosion, suffering facial lacerations from broken glass as well as powder burns. Shortly thereafter, an old friend, a former British commando, unintentionally hit him on the chin with a karate chop when Hunter, who knew judo, failed to defend himself in time and the back of his head slammed against a door. While on the plane with his wife returning to the United States, Hunter's right arm suddenly became semi-paralyzed and he lost the power of speech. Upon landing, he was taken directly from the plane to Valley hospital in Los Angeles where it was determined he suffered a cerebral hemorrhage. He recovered and was released after a couple of weeks. At his home in Van Nuys, California, Hunter continued complaining of headaches and dizziness. Shortly after signing to co-star with Vince Edwards in The Desperados (1969), Hunter suffered another cerebral hemorrhage while on a short flight of steps in his living room and collapsed, fracturing his skull. It is not known how long he had been unconscious when he was finally found. He died during surgery to repair the skull without ever regaining consciousness. He was 42.
Hunter was interred at Glen Haven Memorial Park, in Sylmar, California.[7]

What the? That sounds too bizarre!
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Old August 11 2012, 07:02 PM   #37
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Oh, hell. That's just about the worst string of luck ever.
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Old August 11 2012, 07:24 PM   #38
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Christopher wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Hunter's decision came from career advise he received from his wife, she wanted her husband to push for movies roles, and she didn't take seriously this little science fiction series out of a declining studio.
Well, we don't know that for sure. All we know is that his wife is the one who came to see the screening of "The Cage" and told Roddenberry that her husband wasn't interested in returning for a second pilot. We don't know whether she was the instigator or just the messenger.
That was the story as reported in the behind-the-scenes books from the 90s IIRC. Hunter's wife pushed him towards movies and away from the Trek part. Hunter supposedly made a perfunctory offer to return, but at with a salary demand that all-but guaranteed that he would not be asked back.

More interesting to me was the whole kerfulffle over Number One and Spock, both of whom NBC wanted GONE post haste. GR could only save one, and almost had to chose the alien for story reasons.
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Old August 11 2012, 08:27 PM   #39
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Of course, we have seen the character again, three years ago, played by Bruce Greenwood. And he definitely wasn't the same morose, brooding guy he was in "The Cage," which fits pretty well with what you and I have both said.
Not to get into another canon argument with you (please!), but this is like the situation with Zephram Cochrane... two different actors playing the characters decades apart, with completely different interpretations that completely screw up the timeline.

If Pike was morose and brooding in "The Cage" - just think how much MORE upset he'd be if he had to contend with an arrogant little smartass like Kirk at the same time!

Matt S wrote: View Post
Side note, this thread got me to wondering about Hunter; I knew he died young, but this was from the Wiki:

While in Spain to film the Chicago Mafia story ¡Viva América! (1969), Hunter was injured in an on-set explosion, suffering facial lacerations from broken glass as well as powder burns. Shortly thereafter, an old friend, a former British commando, unintentionally hit him on the chin with a karate chop when Hunter, who knew judo, failed to defend himself in time and the back of his head slammed against a door. While on the plane with his wife returning to the United States, Hunter's right arm suddenly became semi-paralyzed and he lost the power of speech. Upon landing, he was taken directly from the plane to Valley hospital in Los Angeles where it was determined he suffered a cerebral hemorrhage. He recovered and was released after a couple of weeks. At his home in Van Nuys, California, Hunter continued complaining of headaches and dizziness. Shortly after signing to co-star with Vince Edwards in The Desperados (1969), Hunter suffered another cerebral hemorrhage while on a short flight of steps in his living room and collapsed, fracturing his skull. It is not known how long he had been unconscious when he was finally found. He died during surgery to repair the skull without ever regaining consciousness. He was 42.
Hunter was interred at Glen Haven Memorial Park, in Sylmar, California.[7]

What the? That sounds too bizarre!
A very sad series of events. I wonder if current knowledge might have saved him? Or, considering just how fast and how silent a killer this condition can be, maybe it was just inevitable.
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Old August 11 2012, 08:59 PM   #40
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Not to get into another canon argument with you (please!), but this is like the situation with Zephram Cochrane... two different actors playing the characters decades apart, with completely different interpretations that completely screw up the timeline.

If Pike was morose and brooding in "The Cage" - just think how much MORE upset he'd be if he had to contend with an arrogant little smartass like Kirk at the same time!
Agreed.
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Old August 11 2012, 09:00 PM   #41
Christopher
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Not to get into another canon argument with you (please!), but this is like the situation with Zephram Cochrane... two different actors playing the characters decades apart, with completely different interpretations that completely screw up the timeline.

If Pike was morose and brooding in "The Cage" - just think how much MORE upset he'd be if he had to contend with an arrogant little smartass like Kirk at the same time!
Well, I've said before that the two versions of Cochrane don't screw up anything; after all, his two appearances were 205 years apart. I'm not the same person now that I was 20 years ago; just imagine how unrecognizable a man's personality could be after more than 200 years. The only problem I have with First Contact is that James Cromwell was way too old for the role, given the chronology "Metamorphosis" established.

And I don't think your assessment of Pike makes any sense at all. Remember, the Pike in "The Cage" wasn't just "upset" or "brooding" -- he was grieving after the death of several of his crew. Combine that with the fatigue the entire crew was showing at the start of "The Cage," and it's understandable that Pike could've been suffering from an uncharacteristic state of depression.

So prior to 2009, we never actually saw what Christopher Pike's normal personality was like, except maybe for that last minute or two of "The Cage" after he beamed back up from Talos IV and seemed a lot more cheerful. So there's no reason at all why Greenwood's Pike couldn't be representative of what the man was normally like when he wasn't depressed and in mourning. We simply don't know enough about Pike's normal personality to rule that out. And since it's the only other canonical example of the character that we have, there's no valid reason not to accept it.
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Old August 11 2012, 09:07 PM   #42
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
More interesting to me was the whole kerfulffle over Number One and Spock, both of whom NBC wanted GONE post haste. GR could only save one, and almost had to chose the alien for story reasons.
No, that was the story Gene Roddenberry made up to make himself look better. In fact, NBC had no problem what-so-ever with the character of Number One. What they wanted was for Roddenberry to recast the role. They didn't think Majel Barrett was a very good actress and, more importantly, they didn't want the producer's mistress in a starring role. Roddenberry wasn't willing to recast the role and so he turned it into "NBC hates women!" story to make himself look better.
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Old August 12 2012, 04:59 AM   #43
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

Gary7 wrote: View Post
snip

Here's a photo montage I whipped up in black & white, showing Hunter and Shatner. Now, believe it or not, it's hard to find photos of Shatner smiling in black & white, but very easy to do so with Hunter! This works against the point I was trying to make. But even here, you can see how Shatner's face is softer compared to Hunter, even without smiling much.

These smiling pics of Jeffrey Hunter are the reason that, far more than original model Fred MacMurray, I see Hunter as a live action Captain Marvel. If only, in another world...
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Old August 12 2012, 05:59 AM   #44
Ian Keldon
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
More interesting to me was the whole kerfulffle over Number One and Spock, both of whom NBC wanted GONE post haste. GR could only save one, and almost had to chose the alien for story reasons.
No, that was the story Gene Roddenberry made up to make himself look better. In fact, NBC had no problem what-so-ever with the character of Number One. What they wanted was for Roddenberry to recast the role. They didn't think Majel Barrett was a very good actress and, more importantly, they didn't want the producer's mistress in a starring role. Roddenberry wasn't willing to recast the role and so he turned it into "NBC hates women!" story to make himself look better.
Out of curiosity, have you got a source for that?
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Old August 12 2012, 06:27 AM   #45
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Re: Why Did Gene drop Christopher Pike?

^ You can search existing threads here to find this discussed numerous times. There are a variety of sources out there that confirm it. Probably the best known is the book Inside Star Trek: The Real Story by Herbert Solow and Robert Justman.
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