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Old August 9 2012, 08:06 AM   #2251
Jim Gamma
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Re: Star Trek Online Discussion Thread (now free to play!)

Ok, here's one… how do you know that on Cait, it's not the female that has to attract a mate rather than the male? Just because it's the male on Earth, doesn't mean the same holds true elsewhere.
Another: How do you know it's all hair? It could be sensory organs interwoven/protected by hair, that need to dangle from the body (eg because of bio electric interference).

I never saw a need to explain the biology of aliens. The fact that they're alien means they have evolved in a very different environment from us. Who's to say what kinds of features that would cause?
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Old August 10 2012, 06:54 AM   #2252
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Jim Gamma wrote: View Post
Ok, here's one… how do you know that on Cait, it's not the female that has to attract a mate rather than the male? Just because it's the male on Earth, doesn't mean the same holds true elsewhere.
It's not just about that. It's about display towards rival lions and rival predator groups. That aside, its testosterone based.

Another: How do you know it's all hair? It could be sensory organs interwoven/protected by hair, that need to dangle from the body (eg because of bio electric interference).
That's an interesting theory, but nothing like that is even hinted at in either the show, or gaming supplements such as FASA's The Voyage Home Sourcebook.


I never saw a need to explain the biology of aliens. The fact that they're alien means they have evolved in a very different environment from us. Who's to say what kinds of features that would cause?
And that's perfectly fine for you. I personally like reading about and/or viewing aspects of alien anatomy since real explanations go a long way towards immersion. I've had this viewpoint since I first got Wayne Barlow's Guide to Extraterrestrials back in 1980, plus I work in the veterinary field and love biology.

Crazy talk, I know.

Anyhow, there's such a thing as convergent evolution, and since many Star Trek aliens seem to either mimic the Human form and/or other lifeforms which are found on Earth, then THAT'S what I go by with regards to a frame of reference.

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Old August 10 2012, 12:56 PM   #2253
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Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Jim Gamma wrote: View Post
Ok, here's one… how do you know that on Cait, it's not the female that has to attract a mate rather than the male? Just because it's the male on Earth, doesn't mean the same holds true elsewhere.
It's not just about that. It's about display towards rival lions and rival predator groups. That aside, its testosterone based.
And you don't know what might cause it in alien species. It could well be that the females are the more agressive of the species, and therefore make such a display.

Another: How do you know it's all hair? It could be sensory organs interwoven/protected by hair, that need to dangle from the body (eg because of bio electric interference).
That's an interesting theory, but nothing like that is even hinted at in either the show, or gaming supplements such as FASA's The Voyage Home Sourcebook.

Lack of evidence != evidence of lack. Any scientist can tell you that. It might well be that nobody saw the need to come up with an explanation.
I never saw a need to explain the biology of aliens. The fact that they're alien means they have evolved in a very different environment from us. Who's to say what kinds of features that would cause?
And that's perfectly fine for you. I personally like reading about and/or viewing aspects of alien anatomy since real explanations go a long way towards immersion. I've had this viewpoint since I first got Wayne Barlow's Guide to Extraterrestrials back in 1980, plus I work in the veterinary field and love biology.
Fine - but I still don't think you can judge what would be viable for alien anatomy (male/female etc) based upon human anatomy. There are just too many variables in an alien environment. How do we know that there's not some natural substance on Cait that makes you more agressive/whatever, but which is mitigated by some male hormone (not necessarily testosterone)?

(ETA: Don't be surprised if I don't respond to any replies - going to be without 'net access for 2 weeks.)
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Old August 10 2012, 03:57 PM   #2254
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Re: Star Trek Online Discussion Thread (now free to play!)

Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Jim Gamma wrote: View Post
Ok, here's one… how do you know that on Cait, it's not the female that has to attract a mate rather than the male? Just because it's the male on Earth, doesn't mean the same holds true elsewhere.
It's not just about that. It's about display towards rival lions and rival predator groups. That aside, its testosterone based.
It's testosterone based in LIONS. On EARTH. Caitians aren't lions, and they're not from Earth.

And don't mention FASA; they mean less than nothing in a canon discussion. They are literally on the same level as citing our own forum posts as sources; whereas CBS has to sign off on major art decisions in STO, such as what Caitians look like.
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Old August 10 2012, 06:32 PM   #2255
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Re: Star Trek Online Discussion Thread (now free to play!)

Jim Gamma wrote: View Post
And you don't know what might cause it in alien species. It could well be that the females are the more agressive of the species, and therefore make such a display.

Lack of evidence != evidence of lack. Any scientist can tell you that. It might well be that nobody saw the need to come up with an explanation.
Hence my asking for an explanation. Lacking such, and based on what people know (or SHOULD know) about felines on Earth, I'm basing my assumption on convergent evolution. FYI - assumptions and theories don't always have accessible, living entities from which to draw a definite conclusion with regards to appearance and behavior. RE: Dinosaurs - scientists sure have a lot to say about them, don't they?




Fine - but I still don't think you can judge what would be viable for alien anatomy (male/female etc) based upon human anatomy.
Feline anatomy. And I absolutely CAN judge based on what is known.

There are just too many variables in an alien environment.
I don't think you can judge what would be viable for alien anatomy (male/female etc) based upon alien environment which you have little or no knowledge of - see what I did there? Don't be a hypocrite.


How do we know that there's not some natural substance on Cait that makes you more agressive/whatever, but which is mitigated by some male hormone (not necessarily testosterone)?
We don't. It has to be based on what we know of convergent evolution until someone gives an explanation which makes sense. That's what my theory is based on. Your theory seems to be "we don't know because we haven't experienced it 1st hand, so NO ONE can or should speculate."

I certainly hope you aren't a paleontologist.

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Old August 10 2012, 06:47 PM   #2256
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syberghost wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Jim Gamma wrote: View Post
Ok, here's one… how do you know that on Cait, it's not the female that has to attract a mate rather than the male? Just because it's the male on Earth, doesn't mean the same holds true elsewhere.
It's not just about that. It's about display towards rival lions and rival predator groups. That aside, its testosterone based.
It's testosterone based in LIONS. On EARTH. Caitians aren't lions, and they're not from Earth.
Didn't we already go over this? I never said they WERE lions. I'm basing my gripe on what we do know of felines and convergent evolution, which in Star Trek, seems to be a big thing with regards to similarities between species.


And don't mention FASA; they mean less than nothing in a canon discussion. They are literally on the same level as citing our own forum posts as sources; whereas CBS has to sign off on major art decisions in STO, such as what Caitians look like.
I choose Option B: Don't tell me what I can or cannot do. I'll mention whatever I want in a discussion about "opinions" regarding fake aliens in a fake reality. The reason I mentioned the FASA book is because that is at least some form of written documentation on a species which otherwise has very little written about it, canon or otherwise, and in metioning TVH Sourcebook, was citing it in contrast to the theory the other guy offered which was based on nothing substantial that can be found in any sort of Trek lore (Re: "sensory organs interwoven/protected by hair, that need to dangle from the body.") Not once did I claim anything was canon, but go ahead and quote me where I did, and I'll be happy to address it.

Now, I like the concept of Caitians, but I don't think the idea of Female Caitians having a mane makes any sense, nor have I ever. It's a legitimate criticism since there are no explanations for it. FYI - It's actually OK to be critical of aspects of something you like and still be a fan. Being a fan does not mean you HAVE TO like and accept everything without question.

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Old August 10 2012, 06:52 PM   #2257
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Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Didn't we already go over this? I never said they WERE lions. I'm basing my gripe on what we do know of felines and convergent evolution, which in Star Trek, seems to be a big thing with regards to similarities between species.
This is what's tripping you up; they aren't felines. Your housecat has more in common genetically with your houseferns than with them.
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Old August 10 2012, 06:58 PM   #2258
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Re: Star Trek Online Discussion Thread (now free to play!)

And then of course there is the real world explanation that anything with boobs (another matter of debate regarding cats (they should have 6!) looks more attractive to our human eyes if they have a long wavy hair instead of "alien" short fur.
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Old August 10 2012, 07:02 PM   #2259
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Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
And then of course there is the real world explanation that anything with boobs (another matter of debate regarding cats (they should have 6!) looks more attractive to our human eyes if they have a long wavy hair instead of "alien" short fur.
I'm going to add my agreement to this.
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Old August 10 2012, 08:39 PM   #2260
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So, has anyone gotten a fleet ship yet? I'm curious as to how they compare perfoamce-wise to the run of the mill versions.
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Old August 10 2012, 08:47 PM   #2261
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Re: Star Trek Online Discussion Thread (now free to play!)

Ask Cryptic is up:

http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=634281
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Old August 10 2012, 10:00 PM   #2262
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I assume they cherry pick these questions because going by them you would think the only thing STO has issues with are costumes and the need for a little bit more content. lol
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Old August 11 2012, 03:47 AM   #2263
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syberghost wrote: View Post
Romulus Prime wrote: View Post
Didn't we already go over this? I never said they WERE lions. I'm basing my gripe on what we do know of felines and convergent evolution, which in Star Trek, seems to be a big thing with regards to similarities between species.
This is what's tripping you up; they aren't felines. Your housecat has more in common genetically with your houseferns than with them.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Caitian

The Caitians were a felinoid species.

The feline appearance of Caitians includes long manes and a tail.


Nothing is "tripping" me up. I never said anything about genetics and Earth life being DIRECTLY related to alien life. Convergent evolution doesn't require that. But since you apparently know something about the biology of Caitians vs Earth cats vs Earth houseferns, then by all means, explain further. Last I checked:

a cat and a Caitian are both identified as "feline" or "felinoid"
a cat and Catian have two eyes
a cat and a Caitian have fur
a cat and a Caitian have 4 limbs
a cat and Caitian are both able to move from place to place and are agile

Pretty sure a "housefern" is NONE of the above, but do go on...


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Old August 11 2012, 03:52 AM   #2264
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Haggis and tatties wrote: View Post
I assume they cherry pick these questions because going by them you would think the only thing STO has issues with are costumes and the need for a little bit more content. lol
I really believe they feel the Foundry covers quite a bit of their potential workload with regards to new content, which is BS.

And as far as costumes - EXACTLY. Certain poses can cause overlap, or hair doesn't fit right if it's used on an "alien" template. And they need to make more Klingon hairstyles and cloths. It's not like there aren't any references for that either. A basic ponytail is just that - basic. If Caitians can get things like that....oh wait, they're a Fed race. No wonder they were accommodated.

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Old August 11 2012, 12:50 PM   #2265
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Re: Star Trek Online Discussion Thread (now free to play!)

Gold subscription sale... really? I honestly don't see much advantage in subscribing to a free-to-play game.
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