Would Nemesis have been received better if.....

[los2188]

Would Nemesis have been better received if it had been released after First Contact, instead of after Insurrection? I had always believed to a degree that Nemesis suffered after having been the next movie after Insurrection. I can certainly say that Insurrection left a bad taste in my mouth after seeing it, and in some ways my expectations of Nemesis were somewhat lower after having seen Insurrection....what do you think?

[BillJ]

Nemesis would've been better received if it had been a better movie.

[USS Intrepid]

The main problem I see with Nemesis is that the script needed a lot more work, and the director was so far up his own ass he didn't realise he wasn't the great visionary he thought he was.

Nemesis really could have been a great movie, but it just didn't hit the marks it needed too. Most of the problems could have been fixed at the script stage, and it's a real pity they didn't see the problems at the time.

Now that said, I don't think it's the train wreck many people do. And I still maintain that if you went back to all the raw footage you could cut together a much better movie than we got.

That said, it's still a bit of a guilty pleasure movie for me. I was pretty disappointed with it when I saw it, but for all it's flaws, I don't mind it too much these days.

[Galileo7]

USS Intrepid wrote:

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The main problem I see with Nemesis is that the script needed a lot more work, and the director was so far up his own ass he didn't realise he wasn't the great visionary he thought he was....

Agree.

[R. Star]

A guy who can't even be bothered to remember the actors names, can't be expected to direct a good movie.

But the director can't get all the blame, the script was fundamentally flawed on so many levels.

The release order really wouldn't make a difference if these stayed the same. If anything Nemesis should have seemed stronger coming off a weaker movie like Insurrection.

[Balrog]

USS Intrepid wrote:

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the director was so far up his own ass he didn't realise he wasn't the great visionary he thought he was.

One could also say the same thing about Rick Berman, who I think shares a good chunk of the blame for TNG's lackluster big screen outings.

[Captaindemotion]

It's just not a good movie. INS is a better movie, for all its flaws. But I suppose a bad movie (NEM) following a good one (FC) might have been survivable for the series (like TFF following TVH - they were able to get back on track with TUC, as there was still some goodwill for Star Trek).

On the other hand, a bad movie following a lacklustre one just seems to have been the kiss of death for the series, at least for the TNG incarnation of it.

[Drago-Kazov]

BillJ wrote:

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Nemesis would've been better received if it had been a better movie.

The talent was there, the problem was the execution.

[Bry_Sinclair]

BillJ wrote:

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Nemesis would've been better received if it had been a better movie.

So true

The idea had merit, but it was seriously flawed.

USS Intrepid wrote:

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The main problem I see with Nemesis is that the script needed a lot more work, and the director was so far up his own ass he didn't realise he wasn't the great visionary he thought he was.

I'm sure I heard/read somewhere that he wasn't even that familiar with TNG (one example was that he thought Geordi was an alien).

USS Intrepid wrote:

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That said, it's still a bit of a guilty pleasure movie for me. I was pretty disappointed with it when I saw it, but for all it's flaws, I don't mind it too much these days.

I always stop the movie after the toast to Data and you see the ship in dry-dock. That way Data remains dead and honoured for his selfless sacrifice.

[newtontomato539]

The TNG movies blew "Odds suck. Evens better." nonsense out of the water. Nemesis sucked. They all sucked. Geez, what year is this!?

[CoveTom]

Lloyd Dobler wrote:

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One could also say the same thing about Rick Berman, who I think shares a good chunk of the blame for TNG's lackluster big screen outings.

But if we're to say First Contact was a good outing, as most people here seem to, then doesn't Berman also deserve credit for that? Harve Bennett produced Wrath of Khan, but he also produced The Final Frontier. Your writer and your director make a huge difference, and while Berman was ultimately responsible for the franchise, Nemesis really most needed was a script overhaul and a different director.

[CoveTom]

newtontomato539 wrote:

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The TNG movies blew "Odds suck. Evens better." nonsense out of the water. Nemesis sucked. They all sucked. Geez, what year is this!?

I don't think it was ever true anyway. Perhaps you could say "evens are better than odds," but certainly not that the odds are awful. I think TMP and TFF were both decent, but flawed, films. TSFS was good, but overshadowed by what came before and after it. Generations was a decent effort, as was Insurrection. Really, none of the odd numbered films are outright awful.

[Bry_Sinclair]

newtontomato539 wrote:

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The TNG movies blew "Odds suck. Evens better." nonsense out of the water. Nemesis sucked. They all sucked. Geez, what year is this!?

So all discussions and topics on all the series (the last of which ended seven years ago) should be shut down and locked?

It's all meant as a bit of fun.

[R. Star]

Bry_Sinclair wrote:

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So all discussions and topics on all the series (the last of which ended seven years ago) should be shut down and locked?

It's all meant as a bit of fun.

You fed the troll! They're like tribbles! Feed it one tiny morsel and one becomes ten, ten become a hundred! Madness!

[Jeyl]

USS Intrepid wrote:

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The main problem I see with Nemesis is that the script needed a lot more work, and the director was so far up his own ass he didn't realise he wasn't the great visionary he thought he was.

I don't think the script needed a lot more work. I think the script should have been tossed out entirely. Everyone went into this movie believing it was the last story to be told of the next generation crew. Here's what I did not want to see in a final journey.

- They wanted a Wrath of Khan like movie with a dark villain whom Picard has some connection with. Didn't we already have that with First Contact?

- Picard/Data centered story. While Picard and Data certainly took he center stage in the previous movies, there was some attempt at making the other characters have a relevant role in the story. Nemesis didn't bother trying.

- Too much to the point and nothing more. The bad guy is the villain and we must stop him. That's basically it. There isn't much of anything going on for the story make us care for what's at stake.

- Random scenes that add nothing. Dune Buggy is ok I guess, but a Dune Buggy chase with guns and explosions that is never brought up again is sheer story telling incompetence. We could have cut right back to the Enterprise when B4 first responds to Data after picking up his head and there wouldn't be a sense of something missing from the audience.

- Ignoring major character points. Shinzon always goes on and on about how he and Picard are so alike and how Picard is capable of doing all the things he's done. Picard is told by Data that events in ones life shape the person you are. So, what event do we know about that helped shape Picard's life when he was that young? Losing his heart. Shinzon still has his real heart. When Picard tries to reason with him once more, he not only doesn't bring up his artificial heart, but says "you're heart is the same as mine". They had the perfect opportunity to let Picard not only use something from the series, but also give a tangible reason why Picard is who he is as a result of bring brought up differently than Shinzon. He could have told Shinzon that he still has his real heart and that he can still choose a path that won't take all of that away.

- Make it accessible to new comers. This is a big one. How is it that a film which is focused on the last voyages of the TNG crew is being made as a film that is accessible to new comers? This is the end of a near 15 year journey, and they're trying to make it like none of those 15 years ever mattered. That is wrong.

The script shouldn't have been fixed. It should have been abandoned.