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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Fallen Gods.
Outstanding 1 1.16%
Above Average 13 15.12%
Average 40 46.51%
Below Average 23 26.74%
Poor 9 10.47%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 4 2012, 05:43 PM   #151
Thrawn
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
It's spelled "trope".
'Grammar nazi' style hair-splitting. Is this really all you could find?
My arguments must be more compelling than I thought.
I was just correcting a mistake; I thought you'd want to be accurate since you always talk about how painstakingly backed up by facts your arguments are.

I hated this book, I didn't disagree with anything you said about it. I liked the Andorian story in the other books, but this thread isn't really the place for that anyway.

Don't read a hostile tone into a simple correction next time, ok?
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Old August 4 2012, 05:44 PM   #152
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sho wrote: View Post
^ Damn, your original version (which I got in the notification email) read "semantic hairsplitting", and I was not going to be able to resist the sweet irony of pointing out that semantics is about meaning rather than orthography. Then again, grammar isn't about orthography either. But it lacks punch now!
Fell free to point it out, Sho:
'Grammar nazi' is more widely used, and, as such, has less punch than 'vocabulary nazi' or 'orthography nazi' - choices immediately available to me in response.

PS
If I left my post with 'semantic hairsplitting'? My response to you pointing out that 'semantic hairsplitting' does not really fit would involve pointing out the irony that it fits perfectly as a characterization for your post.
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Old August 4 2012, 05:49 PM   #153
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
It's spelled "trope".
'Grammar nazi' style hair-splitting. Is this really all you could find?
My arguments must be more compelling than I thought.
I was just correcting a mistake; I thought you'd want to be accurate since you always talk about how painstakingly backed up by facts your arguments are.
Backed by arguments (established facts, deductions, reasonable inductions, etc), yes.

That's a different thing than being annaly sure my post is gamatically/orthographycally correct. This is an issue quite different from arguments/proof. In this area, my standards for posts written on a bbs are rather lax.

I hated this book, I didn't disagree with anything you said about it. I liked the Andorian story in the other books, but this thread isn't really the place for that anyway.
Considering its developments in this book, the andorian plot-line is fair game for discussion in this thread.
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Old August 4 2012, 05:55 PM   #154
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Regarding grammar and orthography - speaking as a linguist, I can tell you that proper spelling and grammar is a powerful signaling tool for other people about how seriously you take them and yourself on a messageboard such as this. You tend to get a pretty hostile reception to your posting, which I'm sure you've noticed. I'm assuming that you don't enjoy that, so I suspect that if you made a greater effort to be exact in these areas, people would likely take you more seriously when you claimed that your arguments were made with similar care.

I'm not intending to criticize; it's just sometimes difficult for people to realize how they appear to others (myself included). By virtue of your incorrect use of language, your posts often seem amateur-ish, which probably leads people to take them less seriously. I'm sure you're an intelligent and capable person, but it doesn't LOOK that way at first glance, if that makes any sense. As you can probably tell by looking around, the social norm on this board is to pay close attention to these things. When you don't, it comes across as disrespectful, which I'm sure isn't what you intend.

Either way, back to the Andorians, given that this novel takes place a year before Raise The Dawn, I'm sort of hoping that Raise The Dawn is more the direction that story is ultimately going, and not this. Everything about the Andorians in this book was completely stupid.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:06 PM   #155
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I suspect that this is the direction it takes en route to where "Raise the Dawn" repositions the Andorian stories.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:11 PM   #156
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

How so? I'm having trouble seeing how this would fit in at all.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:11 PM   #157
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
[...]Either way, back to the Andorians, given that this novel takes place a year before Raise The Dawn, I'm sort of hoping that Raise The Dawn is more the direction that story is ultimately going, and not this. Everything about the Andorians in this book was completely stupid.
Finally, something on subject!

M Martin - the author - was pretty explicit (as in directly/unequivocally stating it) in a previous interview that the plan for the andorians was to join the typhon pact in this book.
The fact that this did not come to pass indicates either that the author did not know what he was talking about (unlikely) or that he was 'talked' out of it.

The - editorial? - choice for the andorian plot seems to require them not to fall beyond the redemption event horizon.
The setting up scenes for the mind-control explanation to the andorian aggressivity are obvious in this book.

Meaning - the future of this plot line is rather obvious. The federates (future DS9 relaunch cast, probably) with help from a token andorian save the andorian people from The Mule-style mind control, all ending with a happy rejoining of the federation family.
Sort of like bajor and the bajoran parasites, only with different names - well, some different names.
That's what you get when you use already overused tropes.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:13 PM   #158
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I really don't think that the events of Paths Of Disharmony will turn out to have been caused by mind control - is that what you're suggesting? Have you read the scenes that concern that in this novel? Because, crap as this novel was, I don't think that's what they were implying at all.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:23 PM   #159
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The scenes were establishing the tholians have a mind control tech highly effective on the andorians - and used on quite a few andorians in sensitive positions, immediately after Paths of disharmony (and this is only the morsel we got to know so far).
The situation could only be worse for the andorian free-will, a few years afterwards.

And, given that these scenes had no impact on the rest of the book, they are almost certainly dictated from the editorial/etc above, for continuation of the meta-andorian plot-line.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:28 PM   #160
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The scenes were establishing the tholians have a mind control tech highly effective on the andorians - and used on quite a few andorians in sensitive positions, immediately after Paths of disharmony (and this is only the morsel we got to know so far).
The situation could only be worse for the andorian free-will, a few years afterwards.

And, given that these scenes had no impact on the rest of the books, these scenes are almost certainly dictated from the editorial/etc above, for continuation of the meta-andorian plot-line.
How do you get that from this:

"It has been used successfully on Andorian test subjects." ... "To make those test subjects especially susceptible to suggestion."

In fact, later on in the same scene he even complains about the Andorian ruling council, which seems to me like it paints him as a rogue, and indicates that the ruling council is not under Tholian control.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:52 PM   #161
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

One month after Andor's secession, tholians - these one-month old allies - were allowed on an andorian ship, playing football with the minds of andorians. Does this strike you as a sane choice on the part of the andorians/their ruling council?
Even Akaar/starfleet knew about tholians mind-controlling andorians. And the andorian ruling council didn't know? Or knew and did nothing. Does this strike you as a sane choice?

Then there are all the andorian decisions:
The federation's president incredulity at the secession - I doubt it was planned for this, but fits quite well.
The starfleet andorians' incredulity - this was most likely planned.

And all the gratuitous treasons of their own supposed values (federation values the andorians had for centuries) the andorians indulged in in the last 3 typhon pact books. These are pretty easy to write, when you have an easy mind-control explanation/redemption.


The andorian council not being - initially (a month after secession) - as compliant as the tholians wished?
The andorian showing is already pathetic.
In this way, at least the tholians had to put some effort in order to transform the best of the andorians - their democratically elected leaders, protected by the best the andorians have against mind-control, among other things - into Igor. It saves remnants of andorian pride, of their value/credibility as allies - or enemies.
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Old August 4 2012, 06:59 PM   #162
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Hm, I see where you're coming from, but if that's where this storyline goes I'll be pretty pissed.

I actually didn't mind the developments earlier on. Humanity has been full of incidences where good people have done horrible things for what seemed like good reasons at the time. I completely accept the idea that, after living under pressure from this population decline problem for centuries, the Andorians would react irrationally to the apparent reality that the Federation had kept information from them that would help. You seem to think that's "pathetic", but it makes sense to me. Humans act irrationally when they're vulnerable; I don't see why it's a stretch for Andorians to do the same, especially when they've often been portrayed as a rather emotional species.

Having that be due to mind control just kills all sense of subtlety and humanity; it's the comic book way out. Which is kind of the problem with this whole book, actually. I just hope that whoever gives the next chapter in the wider-galaxy narrative doesn't run with it.

(Also, what other "gratuitous treasons" are you referring to? The saboteur in Raise The Dawn? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember no evidence that he was connected to mainstream Andorian thought at all. And if you're using one fringe individual or organization as an example, does Section 31 constitute the Federation being similarly "pathetic"? I viewed that storyline as a meditation on racism becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, which was a much more interesting moral point to make.)
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Old August 4 2012, 07:38 PM   #163
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The secession - I find it credible, if not at all complimentary for the andorians:
The andorians put the 'hurt back' mentality above what was best for their future, the future of their children.
You mentioned human irrationality - while it is understandable for one human in extreme circumstances, it is less excusable for leaders whose job is not to fall prey to their reptilian brain, but to make the best decisions for their people; or for billions of humans at the same time - indicating that most humans lack the ability to see beyond their emotional turmoil, the next minute. Many - most - humans withstand really REALLY bad days without turning into irrational berserkers, lashing out.

What followed is utterly incoherent, though - and a treason of former andorian values:

Take the cardboard andorian villains from the current book - do I really need to expand on this?:
-the totalitarian laws against not-at-home andorians;
-the Therin.

And that 'racism' conclusion an andorian reached in the DS9 terrorist incident - if that's a valid conclusion, then a person who failed to say 'good day' to me is racist towards me - and, of course, as such, deserves to die. It was established the andorian had orders/help from his homeworld - without further clarification; quite possibly, from a legitimate andorian ruling body.

The mind-control revelation turned the andorians from utterly incoherent to pathetic - frankly, any species who is so easily controlled by a foe NOT technologically - or in any other obvious field - superior will not survive in the long term regardless of its reproductive prowess.
In my opinion, this is somewhat of a promotion - especially with the mitigating circumstances to be introduced.
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Old August 4 2012, 07:44 PM   #164
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

And wasn't the relationship between the Andorians and the rest of The Federation, already pretty strained by the time of the DS9 relaunch. I think I remember there being references to things not being that great between at that point, which would be 6 or 7 years before the TP stories. I didn't any problem with the Andorians behavior in PoD, it seemed perfectly in line with the overall portrayal of Andorians in the other books.
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Old August 4 2012, 07:51 PM   #165
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Re: TTN: Fallen Gods by Michael A. Martin Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Right, Edit_XYZ, so this book and the DS9 terrorism incident are all we have to go on after Paths, and you say their behavior in Paths is "credible if not at all complimentary", which is pretty much where I am too. And I agree with you about this book as well; that crap was awful.

So it seems like where we disagree is on the DS9 terrorism incident, so let me make a couple notes on that:

First, I'm not saying that the racism conclusion that the Andorian reached was "valid"; I believe there are no valid reasons for him doing what he did at all. Instead, that it was understandable as a motivation for a villain, similarly to how I understood the motivation of the ruling Andorians in Paths. You seem to disagree, but I wanted to clarify. It certainly makes more sense to me than the moustache-twirling in this novel.

Second, his exact words were "when a friend on Andor contacted me about the Typhon Pact needing help to restore the balance of power with the Federation", which I again feel does not in any way implicate the ruling body as a whole. At most, a member of the ruling body is a radical, which has been shown to occur in the Federation a few times as well.

Basically, if we're not going to judge the Cardassians as a race because of Dukat, or the Klingons because of Duras, or the Federation because of Min Zife, or the Romulans because of Sela, I don't think we can judge the Andorians by one vaguely-described possibly-powerful person on the homeworld and his single overly sensitive accomplice either.
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