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View Poll Results: How do you rate "The Dark Knight Rises"?
Excellent 147 58.33%
Good 61 24.21%
Fair 26 10.32%
Poor 12 4.76%
Terrible 6 2.38%
Voters: 252. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 4 2012, 05:06 AM   #736
Lord Garth
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Lord Garth wrote:
It even impacts what I think of "Batman Begins" and "The Dark Knight" now that I know where they're heading.
That's the thing. This is where they were heading. Especially TDK, but it started back in BB. And you know what? No one seemed to have a problem with it. No one let it interrupt their paeans of adulation for TDK. But now it's paid off and suddenly it's a problem.
I know you're talking in the general.

I did have some reservations about The Dark Knight, and that's why I rate Batman Begins a bit above it but it wasn't enough to detract from my enjoyment at the time.

I don't think the police had anything to do with it. The last time we see them they're cheering him on and then fighting alongside him.
It's been a while, but I remember the police chasing Batman, while Gordon said that he could take it. Only Gordon was (unofficially) on his side at the end.
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Old August 4 2012, 05:19 AM   #737
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

I have a very basic problem with the film. The first film used the theme of fear as a starting point for this man's journey. He learned to confront his fears before the first film ended. The third film he realized that he needed his fears. They are both logical variations of one theme and a good way to bookend a story about a man

The problem arises when you realized that the "fear" thing in the first film was just a starting point. But even as the first film ended the theme changed into something more. The whole escalation thing, the realization that the masked vigilante that he has become might have made the bag guys hit harder, and become stranger. The second film (for all of its flaws) had each character represent a different point on the morality scare. This theme isn't just different than the fear thing, but deeper. While most trilogies are well-served by going back and revisiting a theme introduced in the first film in a new way, here it seems like a cop out. And, at first glance - with all its threads and stories - the narrative of TDKR seems as complex as the TDK - the theme most definitely is not. Makes me think that there was no reason to have such a complex narrative in the third film if the underlying theme wound up being so paper theme. The complexities of the narrative in TDK served the story's themes. Here, they don't .
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Old August 4 2012, 05:20 AM   #738
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

For me it's a matter of perspective. If you want you can ignore TDKR because the end of TDK is open ended. We can easily assume Batman stays in operation despite being branded an outlaw. The flaw with that is how they build the lie of Harvey Dent. In all that time they couldn't get past that lie and just got stuck with it.

Would it really be so bad if they had fessed up from the beginning. All Gordon had to do from the get-go that night was to say what happened: Harvey Dent got fucked up by his injuries, deformity and grief and went off the deep end. Who couldn't understand that. Jim Gordon of the comics and B-TAS would never have sold Batman out. THAT'S the big fuck-up at the end of TDK.

But afterward it's compounded by turning Bruce into a recluse and Batman resigning. None of that rings true of the character we've come to expect. And it doesn't really ring true of the Batman of BB and TDK. Lastly, whatever intelligence Batman may have shown in the first two films is just gone in TDKR. After losing to Bane in a straight-up hand-to-hand the real Batman would have then used his smarts to be Bane on all fronts.
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Old August 4 2012, 05:31 AM   #739
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

What the hell was up with Bane's voice? I couldn't understand half of what he was saying. It was almost as bad as the Bale Batvoice.

Compare this to Vader from a ANH which was 35 years ago, and I had no problem understanding anything he said.
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Old August 4 2012, 05:33 AM   #740
Set Harth
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Lord Garth wrote:
It's been a while, but I remember the police chasing Batman, while Gordon said that he could take it. Only Gordon was (unofficially) on his side at the end.
I'm talking about TDKR.

Warped9 wrote:
Jim Gordon of the comics and B-TAS would never have sold Batman out. THAT'S the big fuck-up at the end of TDK.
And yet, as I was saying, no one seemed to have a problem with it when TDK came out. Which may have something to do with the fact that calling it "Gordon sells Batman out" doesn't wash when it's Batman's idea in the first place and Gordon just goes along with it.
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Old August 4 2012, 11:31 AM   #741
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

The problem with Wayne having given up the Batman persona between movies and the apparently for good at the end of this movie it sort of makes all of the "establishing a Batman status quo" in the first two movies pointless.

I mean he invests time and money into designing this persona and building the Batcave (which we never really satisfactorily see) all for it... To not really be used? Really the set-up of the Batman "universe" in the first two movies was a big cock-tease only for it to be pulled out at the last minute with this movie with the Batman idea never really taking off.

This movie, for me, didn't fit with everything the first two movies wanted to build up. Hell even in TDK Joker says "I can see us doing this forever." as an obvious meta-joke to what a constant source of trouble the Joker is for Batman. But, nah, Batman was able to make Gotham not a crime-riddled hellhole pretty much by making someone else the inspiration of that, and knock off six years his scant 1-year-long career having been enough.
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Old August 4 2012, 02:04 PM   #742
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

I like the, well, "realistic" aspect of Batman being only around for 1 or 2 years. It's a physically demanding job, you can't go on forever. And there are only so many villains out there, not an entire army of masked bad guys. He managed to stop organized crime, he attracted one other masked man, and then had to fight the aftermath of his membership in the League of Shadows. That's perfectly fine within the world Nolan has created.

It's like with Die Hard. The first one was perfect. Then in the second one there's this huge coincidence that he gets again trapped in a terrorist situation, which was already pushing it. In the third one, he is ONLY part of it because it's an after effect of the events of the first film. He killed Hans Gruber, his brother wants revenge. That's perfectly fine. But the 4th one is ridiculous. As is the 5th one. The McClane scenario isn't suited for so many sequels.

And I also think that a realistic Batman scenario would just play out similar to the Nolan films.

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I have a very basic problem with the film. The first film used the theme of fear as a starting point for this man's journey. He learned to confront his fears before the first film ended. The third film he realized that he needed his fears. They are both logical variations of one theme and a good way to bookend a story about a man

The problem arises when you realized that the "fear" thing in the first film was just a starting point. But even as the first film ended the theme changed into something more. The whole escalation thing, the realization that the masked vigilante that he has become might have made the bag guys hit harder, and become stranger. The second film (for all of its flaws) had each character represent a different point on the morality scare. This theme isn't just different than the fear thing, but deeper. While most trilogies are well-served by going back and revisiting a theme introduced in the first film in a new way, here it seems like a cop out. And, at first glance - with all its threads and stories - the narrative of TDKR seems as complex as the TDK - the theme most definitely is not. Makes me think that there was no reason to have such a complex narrative in the third film if the underlying theme wound up being so paper theme. The complexities of the narrative in TDK served the story's themes. Here, they don't .
The fear he had in Batman Begins isn't the same fear he needed in TDKR. Not sure if I can explain it properly... Bruce Wayne has lost the will to live. He needed to learn to want to live again basically. And with the will to live comes the fear of death. That's what the leap was about. He made that jump because he was pumped with fear of dying. In Batman Begins it wasn't fear of death, it was more a fear of not being able to accomplish things, I guess. He had a clear goal: clean the streets of Gotham. And then in TDK, things got worse. And after he lost Rachel, and after he gave up being Batman, after he didn't have a goal any more, it all crumbled down so that he didn't want to live anymore. In prison, he had to "learn" that "life" should be his new goal. So he came back to stop Bane, and then leave to start a new life.

Dream wrote: View Post
What the hell was up with Bane's voice? I couldn't understand half of what he was saying. It was almost as bad as the Bale Batvoice.

Compare this to Vader from a ANH which was 35 years ago, and I had no problem understanding anything he said.
I had no problem understanding him at all.

Last edited by JarodRussell; August 4 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old August 4 2012, 02:23 PM   #743
sonak
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The problem with Wayne having given up the Batman persona between movies and the apparently for good at the end of this movie it sort of makes all of the "establishing a Batman status quo" in the first two movies pointless.

I mean he invests time and money into designing this persona and building the Batcave (which we never really satisfactorily see) all for it... To not really be used? Really the set-up of the Batman "universe" in the first two movies was a big cock-tease only for it to be pulled out at the last minute with this movie with the Batman idea never really taking off.

This movie, for me, didn't fit with everything the first two movies wanted to build up. Hell even in TDK Joker says "I can see us doing this forever." as an obvious meta-joke to what a constant source of trouble the Joker is for Batman. But, nah, Batman was able to make Gotham not a crime-riddled hellhole pretty much by making someone else the inspiration of that, and knock off six years his scant 1-year-long career having been enough.

I thought Bruce wanted to use Batman as an inspiration and wasn't so concerned about having an actual "status quo" Batman on the ground. It turned out that for a while, Dent turned out to be the better inspiration so he went with it.
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Old August 4 2012, 02:56 PM   #744
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Well real histories have been founded on falsehoods. In the U.S. Columbus is celebrated for discovering America when in fact he didn't and didn't even get here. And it continues to be perpetuated.


Batman's original motivation (when the character was created) was born of personal tragedy and he wanted to fight against that happening again to anyone else. And he believed he had to go beyond the norm of becoming just another cop. He wanted to take the fight directly to the criminal element unencumbered by the limitations society has placed on law enforcement agencies and individuals. In a more modern sense he meant to be the ultimate badass town Marshall: "You're in my town now so behave or else..." His motivation and pursuit is indeed a noble one yet ultimately futile in any real sense. No matter how badaas you are someone is always going to think they can better you.

Now the Batman was also but one facet of his campaign because Bruce Wayne was also meant to be the rich man with a social conscience. He was meant to follow his father's example (mind you originally how much was really known about the Wayne's other than they were murdered?).The idle playboy persona won't hold much water with those who know what Bruce really does to help others and so it's just another disguise for the media and society at large.

For a man (or woman) to invest so much of themselves in such an undertaking it does seem silly that he'd be so undermined by a broken heart. And yet that's exactly the idea they're trying to sell us in TDKR. Yeah, maybe it's more realistic, but it doesn't resonate with the Batman of the comics (or B-TAS) who experiences setbacks and emotional disappointments and yet manages not to lose sight of his larger goals and continues his efforts. Hell, it deosn't gel with the guy we saw in BB and TDK.

To me this is a disappointment in TDKR. It taints the character of Bruce Wayne and the Batman, contradicting the person we believe him to be...or should be.
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Last edited by Warped9; August 4 2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old August 4 2012, 03:52 PM   #745
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

The fear he had in Batman Begins isn't the same fear he needed in TDKR. Not sure if I can explain it properly... Bruce Wayne has lost the will to live. He needed to learn to want to live again basically. And with the will to live comes the fear of death. That's what the leap was about. He made that jump because he was pumped with fear of dying. In Batman Begins it wasn't fear of death, it was more a fear of not being able to accomplish things, I guess. He had a clear goal: clean the streets of Gotham. And then in TDK, things got worse. And after he lost Rachel, and after he gave up being Batman, after he didn't have a goal any more, it all crumbled down so that he didn't want to live anymore. In prison, he had to "learn" that "life" should be his new goal. So he came back to stop Bane, and then leave to start a new life.
I'm with you. It is a different kind of fear. And if your going to kind of mirror a theme from an earlier film, as a writer you got to take that theme in a different direction. As a normal trilogy bookend that gives a different spin on a theme introduced early on, TDKR,is fine perhaps. Though some people might complain that 40 minutes of the film were spent on one man making one jump. And what about the rest of the complex Nolanized narrative of parallel stories and mounting tension? In TDK, these kind of scenes not only added to the tension, but also added to that theme of that particular movie. But all of these random threads have to do with the kind of theme this film wants to explore (the fear needed to live again). It's as if Nolan wanted to go back to the first film's character roots but still wanted to act like this was a TDK-like crime drama. He burns the candle at both ends. And when you widdle down all the complexities, and a theme that certain is much lower in ambition than the second film, you have a Return of The Jedi-like hodgepodge of a trilogy ender.
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Old August 4 2012, 04:39 PM   #746
Set Harth
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
I mean he invests time and money into designing this persona and building the Batcave (which we never really satisfactorily see) all for it... To not really be used? Really the set-up of the Batman "universe" in the first two movies was a big cock-tease only for it to be pulled out at the last minute with this movie with the Batman idea never really taking off.
It's inherited by Blake, cave and all.
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Old August 4 2012, 04:45 PM   #747
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
I mean he invests time and money into designing this persona and building the Batcave (which we never really satisfactorily see) all for it... To not really be used? Really the set-up of the Batman "universe" in the first two movies was a big cock-tease only for it to be pulled out at the last minute with this movie with the Batman idea never really taking off.
It's inherited by Blake, cave and all.
Yeah, but for a lot of us Bruce Wayne will always be the one true Batman.


Hmmm...if I keep talking about this I might end up being down on this film
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Old August 5 2012, 05:06 AM   #748
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Well that was terrible. The entire movie was a contrived, disjointed mess. The goal of the Nolan Batman films was to be realistic -- to make you believe that someone would actually wear a batsuit and fight crime -- but this movie completely ditched that aspect. Nothing about TDKR was believable or realistic.

Oh, and the plot was a complete rehash of the first film. Nothing original, ditched its original premise, wasted time on useless characters (the Fueller cop, Robin, Catwoman, Talia, etc.), contrived situations every five minutes, and a bloated narrative.

What a huge disappointment.
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Old August 5 2012, 05:52 AM   #749
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Dream wrote: View Post
What the hell was up with Bane's voice? I couldn't understand half of what he was saying. It was almost as bad as the Bale Batvoice.

Compare this to Vader from a ANH which was 35 years ago, and I had no problem understanding anything he said.
Bane's voice was one of my favorite things about the film. I never had any trouble understanding him.
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Old August 5 2012, 05:54 AM   #750
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Re: "The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

Once again the movie's ending is vague. Even if Bruce passes the mantle of Batman to Robin that does not mean he will not do good in new ways. I doubt he will just stay with Selina 24 hours a day.... Ok if I was him I would.

Maybe he will take over what is left of the League of Shadows and turn it in a better direction.
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