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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old August 2 2012, 12:31 PM   #211
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post

Recall also that "Yesterday's Enterprise" has already established the Klingon/Federation peace beginning 22 years prior to TNG with the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C. STVI ignored this. It also made McCoy and Uhura deeply incompetent, Kirk into a racist and Spock into a mind rapist. While also introducing a Klingon ability to fire while cloaked which they.... never bothered to try again.

IMO, STVI is a deeply flawed movie.
I have no doubt that Federation/Klingon peace wasn't driven by a single event. They're simply too different culturally, so peace was likely achieved in pieces over a long period of time.

How were McCoy and Uhura incompetent?

Having deep seated feelings of anger towards a group responsible for the brutal death of your son? Astonishing! Since the Klingons never renounced Kruge's actions in regards to Genesis, it would be easy for a person to be angry at a group based on those actions.

Spock the mind-rapist? Valeris was part of a cabal that was working to set off a war that could kill millions. The needs of the many...
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Old August 2 2012, 12:49 PM   #212
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
I don't think Star Trek would work like that. Its just not in the story's nature to KILL the entire crew of the Yorktown.
We have no evidence that the crew of the Yorktown was killed or even displaced.
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Old August 2 2012, 12:57 PM   #213
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Recall also that "Yesterday's Enterprise" has already established the Klingon/Federation peace beginning 22 years prior to TNG with the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C. STVI ignored this.
Actually, it still works because treaties are not set in stone (the Klingons briefly pulled out of the Khitomer Accords in DS9--in the "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline, a situation may have caused them to do that sometime prior to TNG and declare war on the Federation).
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Old August 2 2012, 02:12 PM   #214
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I have no doubt that Federation/Klingon peace wasn't driven by a single event. They're simply too different culturally, so peace was likely achieved in pieces over a long period of time.
It's a plausable excuse, but it cheapens the importance of both STVI and YE's stories. Most likely the writers simply didn't do their research.
How were McCoy and Uhura incompetent?
Didn't know Klingon anatomy, didn't know Klingon language. Compare with the McCoy and Uhura of the pre-STVI novels or STXI's Uhura.
Having deep seated feelings of anger towards a group responsible for the brutal death of your son? Astonishing! Since the Klingons never renounced Kruge's actions in regards to Genesis, it would be easy for a person to be angry at a group based on those actions.
He bore no animosity toward Maltz at the end of STIII and drank with the Klingons in STV. That's the Kirk I know (see also: "Day of the Dove"), not Mister "Let them die!"
Spock the mind-rapist? Valeris was part of a cabal that was working to set off a war that could kill millions. The needs of the many...
Another way should have been found, one that didn't ruin Spock's character. And that the entire crew just sat and watched...
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Old August 2 2012, 02:48 PM   #215
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Keeping in mind this isn't the "whats wrong with Star Trek VI" or the "was Spock justified" thread, personally I don't have much of an issue with forcing a mind meld under these circumstances and can't think of any other way of getting her to tell them the information without resorting to another form of torture (if you can please suggest it).

As the Uhura and McCoy, it did make them seem a little daft seeming the history of the Klingons and Federation:

At no point has there ever been a study of Klingon anatomy through giving those either captured or killed a medical scan?

I get that Meyer wanted real books on the Bridge for the translation scene but it just seemed daft that they didn't have it in digital form and have the computer display what the border guard was saying and allow them to quickly compose a response without going through a phrase book.

The fact that an experienced communications officer should know how to speak basic Klingon is another point entirely, one which I am glad they have addressed in the new films as if she is can distinguish between 3 dialects of Romulan we could safely assume she can also understand Klingon.

Back to the Enterprise, Starfleet orders do suggest the decommission of the ship (unless Uhura meant the command crew) where as Kirks final log suggests the ship would go on. I think it likely that he knew that there was to be another Enterprise and he was referring to her as an entity and spirit instead of one physical ship, in Generations he refers to Picard as Captain of 'the' Enterprise not 'an' Enterprise (which may or may not really mean anything)
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Old August 2 2012, 02:50 PM   #216
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

I don't want to derail this thread completely... but...

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I have no doubt that Federation/Klingon peace wasn't driven by a single event. They're simply too different culturally, so peace was likely achieved in pieces over a long period of time.
It's a plausable excuse, but it cheapens the importance of both STVI and YE's stories. Most likely the writers simply didn't do their research.
Or they realized that peace seldom comes in one grand swoop. It is usually the result of years upon years of painstaking work.
How were McCoy and Uhura incompetent?
Didn't know Klingon anatomy, didn't know Klingon language. Compare with the McCoy and Uhura of the pre-STVI novels or STXI's Uhura.
This isn't a comic book and the crew are not super-heroes. McCoy could spend every waking moment studying anatomy of species from across the galaxy and barely scratch the surface of available knowledge. Same goes for Uhura with languages.

The Star Trek 2009 script required Uhura to know Romulan, so she did. The Undiscovered Country script required Uhura to not know Klingon, so she didn't. And Uhura not knowing Klingon violates nothing that came before it, same with Bones not knowing Klingon anatomy. But the whole point is that the series nor movies had ever shown Uhura to be a language whiz to begin with.

Having deep seated feelings of anger towards a group responsible for the brutal death of your son? Astonishing! Since the Klingons never renounced Kruge's actions in regards to Genesis, it would be easy for a person to be angry at a group based on those actions.
He bore no animosity toward Maltz at the end of STIII and drank with the Klingons in STV. That's the Kirk I know (see also: "Day of the Dove"), not Mister "Let them die!"
Kirk was probably in shock at the end of The Search for Spock, he just lost his ship and his son. So using those actions as a barometer on his feelings towards Klingons is meaningless. In The Final Frontier, he isn't exactly buddying around with the Klingons. Looking at the transcript, Kirk doesn't utter a word to the Klingons.

Spock the mind-rapist? Valeris was part of a cabal that was working to set off a war that could kill millions. The needs of the many...
Another way should have been found, one that didn't ruin Spock's character. And that the entire crew just sat and watched...
I don't see taking an action that could save millions of innocent people on both sides of the border as ruining the character. But your mileage may vary.

EDIT: Thinking about it, Spock from the new timeline does the very same thing to Gary Mitchell in the first story from the ongoing comic.
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Old August 2 2012, 05:17 PM   #217
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
It was an awkward Next Generation reference. Supposedly the STVI writers were so clueless about Star Trek lore (and if you've read Denny Martin Flynn's follow-up novel The Fearful Summons you'll have little trouble believing this) that they originally planned an ending where the Enterprise was handed over to Captain Picard and the Next Generation crew.
Nah, it's merely symbolic, meant to acknowledge the TNG crew to audiences. It's not to be taken literally. I mean, do you think that they also expected us to think that Colonel Worf, who defended Kirk and McCoy in the show trial, was meant to be the same guy from Picard's crew?

With you on The Fearful Summons, aka The Dreadful Summons, though.
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Old August 2 2012, 07:50 PM   #218
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

AggieJohn wrote: View Post
EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I saw it a bit differently. With the earlier orders by Starfleet for the Enterprise-A to immediately return to spacedock for decommissioning, Kirk's statements in his final log entry (for me) was in reference to the Enterprise-B and her crew continuing the Enterprise legacy. It could very well be that the Enterprise-B was in the final three months of her construction at the time of Star Trek VI.
See, that's what always confused me about that last scene. On the one hand we have the fairly clear order from Starfleet Command ordering the Enterprise to spacedock to be decomissioned. Yet, in his last log entry, Kirk says "This ship and her history will shortly become the care of another crew." Which seems clear that he is talking about another crew on the 1701-A. If he'd just said "This ship's history will become the care of another crew..." I could understand, but the two statements in the same scene seem at odds with each other. I'd really like to know what TPTB were thinking with that...
Yeah but wasn't that a symbolic gesture meaning the "enterprise" not necessarily that that enterprise. I mean he also say "no one" has gone before. I saw it as a link to TNG.
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It was meant as symbolic handoff to TNG as that was supposed to be the last TOS movie.
Oh I know that, but in story it makes very little sense. Kirk says very specifically "This ship" will be handed over to a new crew.
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Old August 2 2012, 08:20 PM   #219
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

^How do we know it wasn't?
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Old August 2 2012, 08:52 PM   #220
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^How do we know it wasn't?
If it was, it would have been galloping around the cosmos with a different name as well as a different crew. U.S.S. Enterprise, NCC-1701-B launched about a year after the events on Khitomer.
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Old August 2 2012, 09:02 PM   #221
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

^ For all we know, the ENT-A did gallivant around the galaxy with a new crew for a year ago and was blown up or decommissioned some time before the launch of the B. And I'm not sure if the year's gap you mention is set in stone.
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Old August 2 2012, 09:11 PM   #222
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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^ For all we know, the ENT-A did gallivant around the galaxy with a new crew for a year ago and was blown up or decommissioned some time before the launch of the B. And I'm not sure if the year's gap you mention is set in stone.
Fair enough
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Old August 2 2012, 09:29 PM   #223
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

zephramc wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^How do we know it wasn't?
If it was, it would have been galloping around the cosmos with a different name as well as a different crew. U.S.S. Enterprise, NCC-1701-B launched about a year after the events on Khitomer.
Or maybe not. The interval between Star Treks VI and VII is unknown. The decommissioning of the Enterprise-A and launch of the Enterprise-B could very well have been in the same year, only months apart.
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Old August 2 2012, 09:44 PM   #224
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

^Agreed.

I'd have to say that when I first saw GEN, I did think it a bit odd that they'd be launching a new ENT when the ENT-A didn't really seem to be particularly old and was last being seen handed over to a new crew. But ultimately, the time gap between TUC and GEN is unknown, as are the reasons for the (apparent) decommissioning of the A and the launch of the B.

I just think that while there's an ambiguity, it should be resolved in favour of what's onscreen and we should assume that there's a simple explanation that means that what appeared onscreen makes sense. For me, there's nothing that's been said or shown onscreen that rules out the premise I've suggested.
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Old August 2 2012, 10:36 PM   #225
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

^^^
It just means it's not the only premise available.

From onscren material we can gather that the Enterprise-B was launched in 2293 (the once every 39 years appearance of the Nexus would match up perfectly with Picard and the gang 78 years later in 2371). McCoy's statement that he'd been CMO of the Enterprise for 27 years would also make Star Trek VI being in 2293 fit nicely too since it would make his start in 2266, so that's another possibility.
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