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Old August 2 2012, 02:56 AM   #271
HopefulRomantic
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Re: All about T'Pol

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Nichelle Nichols even claims that she was originally auditioned for the role of Spock, who was meant to be a female character in early drafts.
Hmm, that Nichelle Nichols/Spock story was a little different when I first ran across it (in David Gerrold's The World of Star Trek). Nichelle recounted going in for her audition, and at that point Lt. Uhura's part had not been written, or even named yet, so the producers and director asked her to read Spock's part to see how she sounded. But rather than read Spock's lines as the yet-to-be written Uhura, Nichelle suggested she read the part as the Spock character, so the producers would be able to tell if she could act. From the book:

"...And they all turned around and looked at each other like I'd just hit them in the head and said, 'You know, that makes sense.' So I read Spock's part and I took on the stoicness of Mr. Spock and did that number. So Gene said, 'Do you think she'd look good in pointed ears? We could call her a Vulcanita.' All this was in fun, of course, but I still didn't know I had the part."
That was the story in 1973, anyway. I'm aware that Number One's cold, emotionless attitude was transferred to the Spock character after the NBC suits insisted on cutting her, but I've never read that Spock was originally intended to be female. I'd be interested in reading something on that.

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
It seems completely reasonable to conclude that a roughly concurrent change in women's attire was done for the same reason.
Since I was hauling out books for quotes, I looked through Inside Star Trek for something about the costumes. According to Bob Justman and Herb Solow, NBC's on-record reason for rejecting the first pilot was that it was too "cerebral," and they were also pretty squirrelly about that pointy-eared alien Spock guy.

The unspoken reason, however, dealt more with the manners and morals of mid-1960s America. NBC was very concerned with the "eroticism" of the pilot and what it foreshadowed for the ensuing series.
So it doesn't seem that NBC came up with the idea to switch to miniskirts. In fact, when the second pilot was picked up for series, Justman (Associate Producer at the time) handled a lot of producer chores, including set and costume design. According to Justman:

And Bill Theiss would continue to create the new exotic costumes required for each episode. He'd also rework the crew uniforms to make them more attractive--or peculiar, depending upon your point of view.
Justman doesn't say who opted for miniskirts, but my guess is Roddenberry, because of this passage in the book:

Gene Roddenberry claimed to be progressive when it came to sexual politics, but his actual practices belied it. He wanted the actresses in the show to be visual sex objects. Even uniformed female crew members were not exempt. They were chosen on the basis of their looks, and their costumes were designed to emphasize feminine physical qualities: short skirts and high-heeled boots to show off their legs, nipped-in waists and well-filled tunics to emphasize their female figures.

Designer Bill Theiss always had to modify the crew women's costumes as Gene prodded him to make "improvements." The results? Equal opportunity for women: short skirts and lots of cleavage. And female guest stars, invariably exotic, were gowned in filmy, see-through outfits that exposed their bodies and accentuated their breasts.
The book is a terrific read, by the way, even if it did shatter the noble image I'd had of Roddenberry for so many years.

DAYoung wrote: View Post
"Well, they're not like us. They appreciate the aesthetic harmonies of the body, without the complications of sexual desire. The nipple clamps and chaps are seen, on Vulcan, as meditative aids."





Anyway, back on topic! Commander Mel, this one's for you.

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Last edited by HopefulRomantic; August 2 2012 at 03:06 AM. Reason: added a better picture
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Old August 2 2012, 03:49 AM   #272
Commander Mel
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Re: All about T'Pol

Thank you Hopeful Romantic.
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Old August 2 2012, 04:02 AM   #273
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Re: All about T'Pol

HR has all the great pics. I already look forward to the new calendars

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Old August 2 2012, 04:40 AM   #274
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Re: All about T'Pol

@HopefulRomantic.

It would appear I've misquoted the very source that I used. Upon re-reading it more closely, it doesn't actually say that Spock's role was originally meant to be female, but that she was asked to read lines for the that character's role and that the XO was originally meant to be female (which is something we already knew anyways). That's why I get for getting ahead of myself. I retract that statement.

I'm quoting now from the Star Trek Encyclopedia, the Updated and Expanded version, which states, in the entry for "Number One" on page 328-9 that the "character was dropped from the original Star Trek series at the insistence of the network, and Mr. Spoke was "promoted" to second-in-command." It goes on to state that there would be no female in such a position of authority in Trek until "1986, when Madge Sinclair was cast as the captain of the ill-fated U.S.S. Saratoga in Star Trek IV." I know you've already acknowledged that, but bear with me for a moment. The source that I've linked to, which in turn cites Leonard Nimoy among others, ties the decision to switch the female uniforms from pants to skirts into the decision to banish Majel Barrett from the position of Number One, and strongly implies, though it does not directly state, that the second decision occurred for the same reason as the first.

Clearly, there are multiple competing theories behind the treatment of women. I have obviously decided to buy the a particular line, while you have been persuaded by evidence pointing to another conclusion. I'm not sure if we can reconcile the two, though I'm willing to listen to further evidence to support your line of thinking. If you used to believe as I do now, I'd like to see what changed your mind, though I can't guarantee it will do the same for me.

Still, thanks for the reading material. I don't have immediate access to Inside Star Trek as it's not available in my local public library, but I'll think about buying it on eBay or something. I do consider a discussion on the gendered discourse within Star Trek to be vastly more interesting than drooling over pictures of semi-naked actresses.

If you deem this suitable of further discussion, I would be happy to engage in a separate thread, so as not to drag this one any further off course.

Last edited by Hugh Mann; August 2 2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old August 2 2012, 05:05 AM   #275
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Re: All about T'Pol

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post

If you deem this suitable of further discussion, I would be happy to engage in a separate thread, so as not to drag this one any further off course.

That is your best comment so far.
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Old August 2 2012, 05:07 AM   #276
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Re: All about T'Pol

Never mind.

Last edited by Hugh Mann; August 2 2012 at 05:32 AM.
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Old August 2 2012, 06:53 AM   #277
HopefulRomantic
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Re: All about T'Pol

I am Surak wrote: View Post
Hugh Mann wrote: View Post

If you deem this suitable of further discussion, I would be happy to engage in a separate thread, so as not to drag this one any further off course.

That is your best comment so far.
Hey now, was that necessary?

Threads, especially long-running threads, meander from time to time. I do apologize for contributing to the sidebar, since it has clearly bent a couple of noses out of shape. But I freely admit that I wish the discussion would expand beyond the woman's breasts a little more often.

Hugh Mann, if you're still interested in starting that thread about gender, feel free to start it here in the ENT forum if you keep it focused on Enterprise. Otherwise, it might be a better fit in General Trek.

As for stories about the shows... after 40+ years, stories will change a little, interpretations will differ a little. Or a lot -- I hear certain members of the TOS cast have very different memories about a few things. I enjoy the stories all the same-- sometimes even more when I hear different people's takes on what happened way back when nobody had a clue that Trek would endure past 1969. I hope you find a copy of Inside Star Trek, or any of Gerrold's Trek books - they're all a lot of fun to read.

Now, perhaps a few more pictures? Surak already posted my favorite shot from "Impulse." Here are a few from "Similitude."







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Old August 2 2012, 07:24 AM   #278
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Re: All about T'Pol



When I first saw this scene I thought T'pol had just revealed her feet were ticklish as well. Just the way she flinches, it seems like Trip manage to tickle her feet by accident.
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Old August 2 2012, 01:05 PM   #279
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Re: All about T'Pol



She's just so....feline
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Old August 2 2012, 08:29 PM   #280
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Re: All about T'Pol

HopefulRomantic wrote: View Post
I am Surak wrote: View Post
Hugh Mann wrote: View Post

If you deem this suitable of further discussion, I would be happy to engage in a separate thread, so as not to drag this one any further off course.

That is your best comment so far.
Hey now, was that necessary?
We all can't express our feelings in as nice a way as you always do, HR.





I always thought that one of several great rewards from playing "Trip Tucker" was that Connor got to mess around with Jolene's feet. If he ever does an "Inside the Actor's Studio", I'm sure this will come up.

When I first saw this scene I thought T'pol had just revealed her feet were ticklish as well. Just the way she flinches, it seems like Trip manage to tickle her feet by accident.
I thought he hurt her in that scene. It looked like he squeezed her heel a bit. I'll have to go back and watch the scene another few hundred times, just to be sure.


This is the look she hit Sim him with right after the kiss. No wonder he was okay with dying soon after.


lurok wrote: View Post


She's just so....feline
Yes, and I have also read T'Pol described as "elfen". Say what one will about her acting, Jolene brought two things to T'Pol that made the character unique; a Vulcan with vulnerability and ultra femininity.
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Old August 2 2012, 11:24 PM   #281
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Re: All about T'Pol

gblews wrote: View Post
Yes, and I have also read T'Pol described as "elfen". Say what one will about her acting, Jolene brought two things to T'Pol that made the character unique; a Vulcan with vulnerability and ultra femininity.
Agreed.

The ears do make her look a little elfish, but her mannerisms are very feline. Just watch the way she fights with Phlox in "Bounty," VERY feline.
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Old August 5 2012, 10:53 AM   #282
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Old August 19 2012, 11:45 PM   #283
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Re: All about T'Pol

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Old August 21 2012, 04:23 AM   #284
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Re: All about T'Pol

That's a great one I am Surak! I loved her mother and I think they brought us some nice insights into T'Pol with the writing.
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Old August 21 2012, 08:10 AM   #285
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Re: All about T'Pol

T'Pol's mom was very hot back in the day.
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