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Old July 29 2012, 05:39 AM   #256
REDrake
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Re: All about T'Pol

Well, there are relationships but mostly inter-species. They do enjoy putting those up.
At this moment, I'm reading Titan series and if those book would've ever be made into series we wouldn't even talk about these things.
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Old July 29 2012, 09:40 AM   #257
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Re: All about T'Pol

teacake wrote: View Post
I believe we see far more male shirts off in ENT than we see any T'Pol flesh.

As to sexing things up.. Trek needs to be sexed up, but REAL sex/relationships, not just T&A.
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Old July 30 2012, 08:44 PM   #258
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Re: All about T'Pol

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Yes, I know the women were overtly sexualized in the Original Series. However, if I'm not mistaken, the outfits were a concession to the network, and in the original pilot (The Cage), the women were dressed in pants that were the same as those worn by the men. Gene Roddenberry had no choice but to "sex up" the women if he wanted his series aired. Even still, by the standards of the time, the Original Series was quite groundbreaking in its treatment of women (Uhura on the bridge, for instance), and in the movies the women wore the same uniforms as men.

He aspired to a world of gender equality, and later incarnations of the franchise should have taken that further and made good on the ability to do what he could not, instead of selectively confining themselves to the boundaries set by 60's network executives whenever convenient.
I have never read anywhere that the network forced Rodenberry to "sex' things up. If you have a cite, I'de be more than willing to check it out.

Gene was the creator and executive producer of TNG (one of the later incarnations of the franchise), and that show had catsuits on all crew members and included the womanizing Riker, with his bevy of "the willing". Troi was the one in the little mini skirts when she wasn't in her catsuit.

Gene certainly had a vision of equality for women, no doubt, but I don't think it included turtlenecks in space.
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Old July 31 2012, 04:27 PM   #259
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Re: All about T'Pol

From what I learned about Gene R. in the Justman/Solow book Inside Star Trek, Gene was the driving force behind all the sexiness and innuendo on the show. He regularly showed up for costume fittings and often told Theiss to raise the hemlines on the ladies' outfits to show more skin.

If he had been around for Enterprise, it would have been completely in character for him to give T'Pol a skintight catsuit to wear, with strategic holes cut in it to sex it up even more. And without blinking an eye, he would have whipped up a reason to justify why a Vulcan would wear such an outfit.
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Old July 31 2012, 06:01 PM   #260
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Re: All about T'Pol

Loved her character, hated how they degraded her through skimpy outfits or full on rub down scenes....ironically I only really hated it as she was Vulcan, and that kind of apparel was out of line for her race. If she had been human or whatnot, I would have just though 'sex sells' and moved on. As for the rub down scene, is it just me, or was that the first filmed 'boner' on trek? Don't blame the guy, but damn! That scene was a little uncomfortable
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Old July 31 2012, 08:18 PM   #261
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Re: All about T'Pol

HopefulRomantic wrote: View Post
If he had been around for Enterprise, it would have been completely in character for him to give T'Pol a skintight catsuit to wear, with strategic holes cut in it to sex it up even more. And without blinking an eye, he would have whipped up a reason to justify why a Vulcan would wear such an outfit.
More reasons to continue to mourn the passing of the Great Bird.
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Old July 31 2012, 10:42 PM   #262
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Re: All about T'Pol

HopefulRomantic wrote: View Post
If he had been around for Enterprise, it would have been completely in character for him to give T'Pol a skintight catsuit to wear, with strategic holes cut in it to sex it up even more. And without blinking an eye, he would have whipped up a reason to justify why a Vulcan would wear such an outfit.
"Well, they're not like us. They appreciate the aesthetic harmonies of the body, without the complications of sexual desire. The nipple clamps and chaps are seen, on Vulcan, as meditative aids."

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Old July 31 2012, 11:39 PM   #263
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Re: All about T'Pol

DAYoung wrote: View Post
HopefulRomantic wrote: View Post
If he had been around for Enterprise, it would have been completely in character for him to give T'Pol a skintight catsuit to wear, with strategic holes cut in it to sex it up even more. And without blinking an eye, he would have whipped up a reason to justify why a Vulcan would wear such an outfit.
"Well, they're not like us. They appreciate the aesthetic harmonies of the body, without the complications of sexual desire. The nipple clamps and chaps are seen, on Vulcan, as meditative aids."


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Old August 1 2012, 12:11 AM   #264
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Re: All about T'Pol

gblews wrote: View Post
Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Yes, I know the women were overtly sexualized in the Original Series. However, if I'm not mistaken, the outfits were a concession to the network, and in the original pilot (The Cage), the women were dressed in pants that were the same as those worn by the men. Gene Roddenberry had no choice but to "sex up" the women if he wanted his series aired. Even still, by the standards of the time, the Original Series was quite groundbreaking in its treatment of women (Uhura on the bridge, for instance), and in the movies the women wore the same uniforms as men.

He aspired to a world of gender equality, and later incarnations of the franchise should have taken that further and made good on the ability to do what he could not, instead of selectively confining themselves to the boundaries set by 60's network executives whenever convenient.
I have never read anywhere that the network forced Rodenberry to "sex' things up. If you have a cite, I'de be more than willing to check it out.

Gene was the creator and executive producer of TNG (one of the later incarnations of the franchise), and that show had catsuits on all crew members and included the womanizing Riker, with his bevy of "the willing". Troi was the one in the little mini skirts when she wasn't in her catsuit.

Gene certainly had a vision of equality for women, no doubt, but I don't think it included turtlenecks in space.
I don't have anything that explicitly states Gene Roddenberry was forced to change the women's uniforms as a condition for the airing of his series, but I believe it's what occurred because, in part, it fits in with what we know did occur and it adequately explains the change from pants to skirts.

For example, we can also point to the fact that Majel Barett originally played the Second in Command, which was found to be too radical for network executives. We know that Gene wanted Majel as Number One because he intended to "have a woman play a character in a clear authority position" but changed it when the network wasn't comfortable with a female second in command. Nichelle Nichols even claims that she was originally auditioned for the role of Spock, who was meant to be a female character in early drafts. It seems completely reasonable to conclude that a roughly concurrent change in women's attire was done for the same reason.

I may not have conclusive evidence, of the kind that would pass as beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, but I think it's a completely reasonable extrapolation of what we do have.

It is true that Deanna Troi was originally dressed in rather feminine attire, which would change to a regular uniform in TNG's final seasons after Roddenberry's death, but I believe that was because her purpose on the Enterprise-D was an embodiment of the sort of "touchy-feely" sensibility that was common in the 80s. Her open uniform was suitable as part of that role, and better suited it than the stiffness of a regular uniform. After all, Dr. Crusher, Tasha Yar, and many other female characters on TNG wore the same uniforms as men right from the get-go, as they did in the TOS movies.
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Old August 1 2012, 05:01 AM   #265
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Re: All about T'Pol

Ahh TOS the mighty sword of Women's liberation. There is a reason the cage was kept in a cage. It sucked. Thank God for those TV execs that gave my younger self such wonderful mystical entertainment.
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Old August 1 2012, 09:47 AM   #266
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Re: All about T'Pol

Women being objectified? I have never heard of such a thing. We must keep it from the serfs, lest they gain knowledge and rise against us!

Seriously can we please move back to the titular character of this thread? Trek has always been sexed-up, we can argue about it until we're all blue (or rust colored for our Vulcan members) in the face, however that is just the way Trek is and it's still pretty tame compared to a lot of Sci Fi.
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Old August 1 2012, 10:22 AM   #267
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Re: All about T'Pol

Commander Mel wrote: View Post
Women being objectified? I have never heard of such a thing. We must keep it from the serfs, lest they gain knowledge and rise against us!
Sometimes I think I must have a male brain.
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Old August 1 2012, 08:04 PM   #268
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Re: All about T'Pol

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
Yes, I know the women were overtly sexualized in the Original Series. However, if I'm not mistaken, the outfits were a concession to the network, and in the original pilot (The Cage), the women were dressed in pants that were the same as those worn by the men. Gene Roddenberry had no choice but to "sex up" the women if he wanted his series aired. Even still, by the standards of the time, the Original Series was quite groundbreaking in its treatment of women (Uhura on the bridge, for instance), and in the movies the women wore the same uniforms as men.

He aspired to a world of gender equality, and later incarnations of the franchise should have taken that further and made good on the ability to do what he could not, instead of selectively confining themselves to the boundaries set by 60's network executives whenever convenient.
I have never read anywhere that the network forced Rodenberry to "sex' things up. If you have a cite, I'de be more than willing to check it out.

Gene was the creator and executive producer of TNG (one of the later incarnations of the franchise), and that show had catsuits on all crew members and included the womanizing Riker, with his bevy of "the willing". Troi was the one in the little mini skirts when she wasn't in her catsuit.

Gene certainly had a vision of equality for women, no doubt, but I don't think it included turtlenecks in space.
I don't have anything that explicitly states Gene Roddenberry was forced to change the women's uniforms as a condition for the airing of his series, but I believe it's what occurred because, in part, it fits in with what we know did occur and it adequately explains the change from pants to skirts.

For example, we can also point to the fact that Majel Barett originally played the Second in Command, which was found to be too radical for network executives. We know that Gene wanted Majel as Number One because he intended to "have a woman play a character in a clear authority position" but changed it when the network wasn't comfortable with a female second in command. Nichelle Nichols even claims that she was originally auditioned for the role of Spock, who was meant to be a female character in early drafts. It seems completely reasonable to conclude that a roughly concurrent change in women's attire was done for the same reason.

I may not have conclusive evidence, of the kind that would pass as beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, but I think it's a completely reasonable extrapolation of what we do have.

It is true that Deanna Troi was originally dressed in rather feminine attire, which would change to a regular uniform in TNG's final seasons after Roddenberry's death, but I believe that was because her purpose on the Enterprise-D was an embodiment of the sort of "touchy-feely" sensibility that was common in the 80s. Her open uniform was suitable as part of that role, and better suited it than the stiffness of a regular uniform. After all, Dr. Crusher, Tasha Yar, and many other female characters on TNG wore the same uniforms as men right from the get-go, as they did in the TOS movies.
Your speculation about what you think may have happened notwithstanding, if you ever do locate a citation which supports your position (that is, that the network forced Gene to sex up TOS), please post it.
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Old August 1 2012, 08:46 PM   #269
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Re: All about T'Pol

Well, I was using a form of inductive reasoning, arguing a generalization from a specific example, which is a legitimate rhetorical tool/strategy. We don't actually (always) require a specific source that spells something out in big, bright, bold letters to decide that the thing in question is (probably) true.

But if I come across something that does spell it out I'll be sure to bump this thread and post it.

As far as T'Pol goes, I stand by my original comment that dressing her in a skin-tight catsuit and push-up bra runs contrary to the spirit of Trek, and that her character would've been better suited by having her wear a more conventional uniform. Sexing her up undermined her authority and legitimacy as a character by positioning her as a sex symbol first and an authority figure second, encouraging the viewer to treat her accordingly (and judging by some reactions in this thread, it worked).
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Old August 1 2012, 11:18 PM   #270
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Re: All about T'Pol

I always saw T'pol as knowing how attractive she is and how tight her outfit is, she knows the men are looking at her...and she could care less. Personally I think that dignifies her far more than a less revealing outfit ever could. But that is just my opinion.

As to whether she was sexed up for ratings, well yeah of course she was. However it was her face that got me, it doesn't matter what she's wearing.
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