Farscape or Babylon 5?

[JD]

I have to share one of my favorite Farscape moments. This was actually on a Blastr list of great SF speeches, and it was one of my favorites of the bunch.
http://youtu.be/_EMO14pRRRk (Very spoilery, so be careful if you haven't seen up to the last season yet).

[Angel4576]

Farscape is like some weird amalgam of Firefly, Red Dwarf and Blake's 7. It's a fantastic show that I ordinarily wouldn't be able to recommend highly enough.

Given a 'that or Babylon 5' though, it would always have to be Babylon 5. B5's just that good. It's probably the only show that I'd rank higher than DS9 in the genre.

Its first season, on first glance, could be construed as hit and miss, and to be fair, there are some absolute stinkers of episodes in there. However, even those usually include a few nuggets of pivotal information that will be revealed later in the season, or sometimes even much later in the show's lifespan.

Seasons 2-4 are IMO, some of the best the genre's ever produced.

[Jeff O'Connor]

I'm not so keen on several early second-season outings either, but I get the distinct impression I'm something of a rarity in that regard.

I'm heading out shortly, but I'll definitely check out that link later, JD. I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

And yeah, Londo and G'Kar... a lot of fans claim those two won them over straight out of the gate, but I'm not their biggest fan near the beginning of the series. G'Kar's kind of a really goofy antagonist-thing for at least a couple of episodes, isn't he? In retrospect it surely works, but I don't care for how he's handled in that regard "in the moment" with those first few outings.

Londo fares a bit better for me, but not by much.

Hot damn though, they get great rather quickly.

[Angel4576]

Jeff O'Connor wrote:

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I'm not so keen on several early second-season outings either, but I get the distinct impression I'm something of a rarity in that regard.

I think there's only one episode in all of season 2 that I don't like!

Londo and G'Kar... a lot of fans claim those two won them over straight out of the gate, but I'm not their biggest fan near the beginning of the series. G'Kar's kind of a really goofy antagonist-thing for at least a couple of episodes, isn't he? In retrospect it surely works, but I don't care for how he's handled in that regard "in the moment" with those first few outings.

Londo fares a bit better for me, but not by much.

Hot damn though, they get great rather quickly.

Ultimately, they're probably two of the greatest characters in the series, but I doubt anyone could call that right out of the gate. A large part of what makes them such great characters is the journey that each of them goes on: where they start, where they go, and where they finish.

I think at the beginning, I felt pity for one of them, and revulsion for the other!

[Harvey]

I think G'Kar took a few episodes to come into his own; essentially, once Straczynski stopped using him simply as a heavy and allowed for more wisdom and introspection ("Mind War," I think?) he became much more interesting. The same thing might be said about Crais on Farscape, of course. He's effective in "Premiere," but one-dimensional. He gets some important backstory in "That Old Black Magic" and only grows from there.

[Greg Cox]

JD wrote:

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I have to share one of my favorite Farscape moments. This was actually on a Blastr list of great SF speeches, and it was one of my favorites of the bunch.
http://youtu.be/_EMO14pRRRk (Very spoilery, so be careful if you haven't seen up to the last season yet).

That was a fun scene. And you gotta love a show that actually titles an episode "We're So Screwed."

[JD]

Since I posted the one scene, I have to post one of my other favorite Farscape moments. IMO I don't know how you could watch these two scenes and say Farscape didn't have good acting and writing. (If you have not seen the show DO NOT WATCH THIS. It's a huge spoiler and pretty much the conclusion to the show's whole arc).

[Greg Cox]

Angel4576 wrote:

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Farscape is like some weird amalgam of Firefly, Red Dwarf and Blake's 7.

That's a pretty good description! (Although I'd throw in a hefty dose of Buck Rogers as well.)

[Reverend]

Harvey wrote:

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I think G'Kar took a few episodes to come into his own; essentially, once Straczynski stopped using him simply as a heavy and allowed for more wisdom and introspection ("Mind War," I think?) he became much more interesting. The same thing might be said about Crais on Farscape, of course. He's effective in "Premiere," but one-dimensional. He gets some important backstory in "That Old Black Magic" and only grows from there.

The thing with G'Kar was intentional though. It was pre-planned that he'd have his character arc where he'd start off as a two dimensional villain and you'd get to watch for five years as he slowly becomes <spoiler redacted>. Indeed, most of the main cast had similar arcs, though with the exception of Londo, none were quite so drastic.

And yes, the 'Mind War' b-story (specifically the "ant" speech) was the first glimpse we're given into what's really going on with him.

Crais on Farscape was a totally different situation. It was a dead-end, one dimensional character that they kept around largely because they liked the actor. His motivations appeared to change with the wind and you can really tell that they had no clear plan. Don't get me wrong, he was a good character and he became very interesting towards the end, but I wouldn't compare him to the likes of G'Kar on anything other than superficial terms.

[Harvey]

I was only listing the two as examples of characters that started off as one-dimensional heavies and developed into much more complex people. Obviously their specific arcs and the circumstances surrounding their creation and development are quite different. Whether it was planned or not is really irrelevant; neither character was really interesting until they were given more depth and nuance than in their first appearance.

(And I still don't understand what "pre-planning" is supposed to mean when describing the creation of Babylon 5; "planning" describes it just as well and with more efficiency).

I have to disagree that Crais' motivations changed because the writers had no clear plan for the character. His motivations did change, but logically, as the character developed and we learned more about him. The writers didn't have it all down on paper at the beginning -- thankfully, as Lani Tupu's performance influenced how the character was written, and for the better -- but they didn't push the character around to fit the plot willy-nilly.

(Trying not to have any meaningful spoilers here, since the OP hasn't seen either series).

[Jeff O'Connor]

Oh man, I just watched those two scenes.

Tiiiime to watch the show again.

[IcecreamLtDan]

My favorite, most emotionally charged scene.

[DWF]

So much for not putting spoilers out there.

[kirk55555]

DWF wrote:

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So much for not putting spoilers out there.

Well, its not that bad. I don't know who or what Tayln is, or what his end is (although my money would be on it being his demise). I'm not going to watch the video. Still, spoilers would be appreciated

[flavaflav]

Purple