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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 31 2012, 12:45 AM   #16
Greg Cox
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Timo wrote: View Post
Agreed that this probably refers to the delegates, as many a Spock-centric episode previously hinged on Spock being unique.

Timo Saloniemi
Seconded. Spock is very clearly the only Vulcan serving on the Enterprise. That one line in "Journey to Babel" simply refers to the Vulcan delegation currently visiting the ship.
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Old July 31 2012, 12:49 AM   #17
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Jptrekker wrote: View Post
I always assumed the UFP to be a confederation, not a democracy.
Why couldn't it be both?
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Old July 31 2012, 01:29 AM   #18
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
About St. Petersburg/Leningrad...

We don't have to take this as proof that the Soviet Union still existed in Trek's timeline past 1991, or even that the city's named reverted at some point to Leningrad, as in modern-day Russia, the oblast (federal district) is still called Leningrad. We can just say that Chekov was referring to the Oblast. AFAIK the few other times Leningrad is referred to could also be taken to refer to the Oblast.

Furthermore, many people in Russia continue to refer to the city in casual conversation as Leningrad, in much the same way that many people in the former South Viet Nam still refer to their old country's capital as Saigon despite the name change to Ho Chi Minh City. We could just assume that this pattern will continue into the future.

[/nitpick]
The Tsiolkovsky from TNG's The Naked Now is listed as being built in the USSR.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/SS_Tsiolkovsky
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Old July 31 2012, 01:48 AM   #19
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Ah, I see you're right, thank you for posting that. In light of that, perhaps we should consider that dedication plaque an error and imagine that it says "Russian Federation," in much the same way that we should imagine that the Klingon Battlecruiser depicted in ENT "Unexpected" was not the same as the various Klingon Battlecruisers depicted in DS9, over 200 years later. Alternatively, we could consider that another entity named the USSR existed at a later date. Either is equally tenable in my view.

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Old July 31 2012, 02:48 AM   #20
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

As several of you have pointed out, I have used the term "democracy" where the term "republic" or "indirect democracy" might be more appropriate. Nevertheless, the question still stands. Since we seem to have agreed that the "Journey to Babel" Vulcans were part of the Vulcan delegation, how does this explain the fantastic preponderance of Terrestrial sailors, captains, and admirals in Starfleet? It would seem that (in Starfleet, at any rate), Earth is vastly overrepresented in comparison to other planets. It is probably safe to assume that the same can be said for the civilian government.
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Old July 31 2012, 03:38 AM   #21
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Captain Shatner wrote: View Post
As several of you have pointed out, I have used the term "democracy" where the term "republic" or "indirect democracy" might be more appropriate. Nevertheless, the question still stands. Since we seem to have agreed that the "Journey to Babel" Vulcans were part of the Vulcan delegation, how does this explain the fantastic preponderance of Terrestrial sailors, captains, and admirals in Starfleet? It would seem that (in Starfleet, at any rate), Earth is vastly overrepresented in comparison to other planets. It is probably safe to assume that the same can be said for the civilian government.
We've seen non-Human UFP presidents ( of the three I can recall only one was human) and councilors on several occasions.
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Old July 31 2012, 04:15 AM   #22
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Captain Shatner wrote: View Post
As several of you have pointed out, I have used the term "democracy" where the term "republic" or "indirect democracy" might be more appropriate. Nevertheless, the question still stands. Since we seem to have agreed that the "Journey to Babel" Vulcans were part of the Vulcan delegation, how does this explain the fantastic preponderance of Terrestrial sailors, captains, and admirals in Starfleet? It would seem that (in Starfleet, at any rate), Earth is vastly overrepresented in comparison to other planets. It is probably safe to assume that the same can be said for the civilian government.
Well, there was the U.S.S. Intrepid in "The Immunity Syndrome," whose crew of 400 consisted entirely of Vulcans.

For all we know, there are Starfleet vessels full of Andorians and Tellarites, too.
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Old July 31 2012, 07:05 AM   #23
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Captain Shatner wrote: View Post
how does this explain the fantastic preponderance of Terrestrial sailors, captains, and admirals in Starfleet? It would seem that (in Starfleet, at any rate), Earth is vastly overrepresented in comparison to other planets.
There are a few different ways of explaining it.

We've seen many non-Human humanoids, so this could explain the seeming large number of Humans, they are in fact not Humans at all, but a variety of alien species from both inside and outside the federation, who are serving in Starfleet.

Or, a different explanation could be drawn from the United States military, there are people from all the American states and territories serving in the US military, plus people from outside the US serving in the enlisted ranks. But a disproportion number of people in the service are from the American south-east. It could be somewhat similar with Starfleet, it isn't that it composted entirely of Humans, but Humans are a much higher percentage than any of the other federation member species.

Or, Humans could be so culturally different than the majority of federation species, that it necessary to place us in our own ships.

Or, Some federation members might not volunteer for Starfleet at all, they'll do other things within the UFP organization.

Or, as has been proposed in the past, If a member species breathed some atmospheric gas other that ours (and we've seen people with masks before), or are comfortable with extremes in temperature, they could serve aboard their own ships, same with aquatic lifeforms analogist to octopi and dolphins.

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Old July 31 2012, 07:17 AM   #24
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Not to mention, the real reason: actors are human.
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Old July 31 2012, 07:32 AM   #25
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

As for if the Soviet Union still existed in the Federation... this is from TNG's Naked Now.

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Old July 31 2012, 08:07 AM   #26
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

After WWIII a lot of the disgruntled displaced old governments would have made some powerplays.

After the fall of the United States of America, don't you think that the Native Americans would have thought about getting together and kicking whitey out?

From DS9 Rapture.

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.
Chosen, not elected. Slicing the Melon finely I know, but the text suggests a political appointment and not an elected position.

I google searched every Star trek script for the word Democracy, and other than a mention of "the dark Time" in Klingon history when they experimented with it, every other mention of Democracy is the common idiom "This is not a Democracy" some Captain belts out when the little people try to be difficult. Using the same proccess the onlymention of elections are about Kai Winn and Shakaar from DS9 so, really?

No money.

No elections.

They're pinkos

The Federation was Founded on Pinko Ideals.
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Old July 31 2012, 08:16 AM   #27
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
After WWIII a lot of the disgruntled displaced old governments would have made some powerplays.

After the fall of the United States of America, don't you think that the Native Americans would have thought about getting together and kicking whitey out?

From DS9 Rapture.

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.
Chosen, not elected. Slicing the Melon finely I know, but the text suggests a political appointment and not an elected position.

I google searched every Star trek script for the word Democracy, and other than a mention of "the dark Time" in Klingon history when they experimented with it, every other mention of Democracy is the common idiom "This is not a Democracy" some Captain belts out when the little people try to be difficult. Using the same proccess the onlymention of elections are about Kai Winn and Shakaar from DS9 so, really?

No money.

No elections.

They're pinkos

The Federation was Founded on Pinko Ideals.
In the DS9 relaunch novels, after Bajor joined the Federation the First Minister(their local government remained in tact) specificly appointed the Federation Council member representing Bajor. Neoptism at it's best too as it was her ex-husband.
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Old July 31 2012, 08:27 AM   #28
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

The only things we know about the minimum requirements of a government to petition federation membership is that they're postwarp, represent the entire planet, and that there is no cast system presupposing leadership.

I wonder what some grounds be for expulsion from the Federation might be?
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Old July 31 2012, 08:44 AM   #29
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

The Tsiolkovsky from TNG's The Naked Now is listed as being built in the USSR.
We could treat that as an in-joke, no different from the giant rubber duck inside the E-D saucer, as this dedication plaque is not visible in the actual episode.

More exactly, it's so off-focus that the only thing we can read is the name; the rest of the text is so illegible that we can't tell the registry number apart from the class name.

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...now_hd_035.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...ow_hd_032a.jpg

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Old July 31 2012, 02:37 PM   #30
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Re: Is the Federation a True Democracy? And How Did It Reach That Poin

Timo wrote: View Post
The Tsiolkovsky from TNG's The Naked Now is listed as being built in the USSR.
We could treat that as an in-joke, no different from the giant rubber duck inside the E-D saucer, as this dedication plaque is not visible in the actual episode.

More exactly, it's so off-focus that the only thing we can read is the name; the rest of the text is so illegible that we can't tell the registry number apart from the class name.
Not an in-joke as the Soviet Union still existed when The Naked Now was produced.

There was no nuclear weapons platform in 1968.
There was no Eugenics War in 1992.
There was no manned Saturn mission.

But they all happened in the Trek universe. I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of Trek being an alternate reality where the Soviet Union simply didn't cease to exist. It probably did change at some point later in the Trek universe but held on to the name due to tradition.
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