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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 12 2012, 11:11 PM   #31
LS31
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

When the war is over the following will happen in short order: the Dominion will be forced back to the Gamma Quadrant; the Cardassian Empire will be occupied; the Klingon Empire will spend the next ten years recovering from the war and won't pose a serious threat to anyone. That leaves two powers to vie for control of the quadrant: the Federation and the Romulans. - Sloan, "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"
I always assummed that the the Federation/Romulans/Klingons would occupy Cardassia Prime and their other territory. Some sort of provisional government would be formed from Damar's resistance movement. Eventually that government would take control from the Federation/Romulan/Klingon occupation.

I guess the primary issue would be if the Federation and Romulans resume their hostilities post-war and refuse to relinquish territory they are occupying.
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Old July 12 2012, 11:21 PM   #32
R. Star
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Knight Templar wrote: View Post
I think of the Cardassians during the war as being not unlike Italy to the Axis during World War Two.

While the Italians made a pretense of being tough guys, when the war really got going the Germans had to bail them out.

by the way, it reminds me of Winston Churchills comment about Italy when he learned they were fighting on the German side in WWII.

"It's only fair. We had them last time." (World War One).
Well that's about the most shallow and insulting way to make a point by making a blanket statement against an entire group of people.

To say nothing of the fact it demonstrates your lack of any in depth knowledge of world war II. Italy had a lot of problems, but combrat prowress wasn't one of them. If you had ever read any reports of the campaigns in North Africa you'd know that.

They were lacking in industry and heavy equipment to be certain. Their main problem was they had to project naval and air power over a British dominated Mediterranian, and with so much of their industry keeping them in the game there, thinks like heavy artillery and tanks are secondary.

Before you mention Greece, let me just point out that the campaign in Greece was a testimony both to Mussolini's lack of strategic insight and preparation and the ferocity of the Greek defenders than the Italian people or nation you so openly insulted.

There are parallels to be certain, but maybe you should watch a bit more Trek outside the Dominion war arc and learn about it's themes of tolerance and understanding.
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Old July 22 2012, 12:38 PM   #33
GulGoneCrazy
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

I see the future of Cardassia in this way.
Their territory will be occupied for some time by Romulans and Federation.The Klingons will stay for much longer time in thier occupy zones.

The Federation is likely going to send help to Cardassians in medical and food supplies and try to prevent any conflicts between Romulans,Klingons and Cardassians.The federation promotes peace and cooperation so they will assist Cardassians in making new democratic government.It is very likely that Federation will not allow Cardassians to rebuild their military leaving them just enough Galors and Hideki vessels to defend their territory from pirate raids.There also may be a constant trade route between Cardassians and Feds.

The Romulans will probably leave their part of Cardassian space back to them since Romulan empire is very far from Cardassia and empire needs to be defended.As far i know Cardassian space is poor in resources so Romulans may not see any profit in holding it any longer.The relationship between Cardassians and Romulans will probably be neutral in future times after occupation.

The Feds and Romulans may be gone very soon but Kingons wont.I think that they will stay much longer in zones they occupied to take any resources from it.Klingon empire is big and it needs resources to rebuild fleet witch is lost during Dominion war.When all possible resources are taken they will eventually leave territory back to Cardassians.

The Cardassians will very likely form a democratic government under influence and example from Federation.After rebuilding Cardassia prime and other planets their industry and society will probably grow.When occupation ends, they may start building more advanced vessels and retake some territory from Breen.If all goes well Cardassians may become a fearsome power again in next 20 or 30 years.

But if they decline cooperation and start plotting a revenge against Fed and Klingons they may put them selves into much worse situation.

There is also an increasing threat from the borg.If borg attacks Cardassians in this current weak status that may be the end of Cardassian existence.Or if the borg attack hits Romulans,Klingons or Feds thats mean that occupation of Cardassia may end much sooner.

Everything is possible but as a Cardassian fan i am hoping that Cardassian union has learned a lesson and that it will rebuild it self from ashes and become fearsome power again.
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Old July 22 2012, 07:04 PM   #34
NebulaClassGuy
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

As much as the Cardassians would loathe to recognize the reality of this, I tend to believe that Cardassia basically became a clone of post-occupation Bajor after the war, which to a Bajoran, would be poetic justice.

The Cardassian government and military was in ruin, their cities had been devastated, the population would now be in poverty and starving, and vast quantities of cultural treasures were forever lost to the war. This means that like Bajor, Cardassia would need to swallow any shreds of pride it had left, and depend on the UFP and her allies to survive.

And just like the Bajorans, I can totally see many Cardassians, the youth in particular, rushing to enlist in Starfleet, both as a way to simply get off of their ruined homeworld and escape a life in poverty and despair, and as a way to better themselves and build a tangible life for themselves and their families.
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Old July 23 2012, 12:32 PM   #35
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.

Did the Dominion leave the Alpha Quadrant? Now that they had Odo and the cure, they would have no real reason to withdraw. And as far as we know, they never promised to do so anyway - the treaty witnessed at the end of "What You Leave Behind" was only about stopping the fighting. For all we know, there now exists a little corner of Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant, perhaps a star system or three, and angered Cardassians are free to join the mighty Dominion war machine there if they consider this will one day help liberate Cardassia from the occupation.

...It's not as if the Bajorans who joined Starfleet would have thought highly of that organization in absolute terms, either. (Sure, it hadn't exactly bombarded Bajor to tiny pieces, but whether that's a distinction worth noting is debatable.)

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Old July 23 2012, 02:30 PM   #36
naverhtrad
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Timo wrote: View Post
...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.

Did the Dominion leave the Alpha Quadrant? Now that they had Odo and the cure, they would have no real reason to withdraw. And as far as we know, they never promised to do so anyway - the treaty witnessed at the end of "What You Leave Behind" was only about stopping the fighting. For all we know, there now exists a little corner of Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant, perhaps a star system or three, and angered Cardassians are free to join the mighty Dominion war machine there if they consider this will one day help liberate Cardassia from the occupation.

...It's not as if the Bajorans who joined Starfleet would have thought highly of that organization in absolute terms, either. (Sure, it hadn't exactly bombarded Bajor to tiny pieces, but whether that's a distinction worth noting is debatable.)

Timo Saloniemi
I don't know about this. You would hope most right-thinking Cardassians would think twice before allying themselves with a polity that had been responsible for the systemic massacre of 800 million of their people. The Dominion occupation of Cardassia was brief, but far, far more brutal than (one assumes) the UFP/KE/RSE one.

That said, the in STO the Cardassian True Way had joined the Dominion to commit acts of terrorism against the Federation, but STO is not canon, and we knew the True Way were a bunch of dicks anyway.
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Old July 23 2012, 02:46 PM   #37
GulGoneCrazy
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Maybe there is possibility that Cardassians will split up into sections ?Those who want the dominion by theirs side and break the occupation and those who want new Cardassia cooperating with occupying forces that will hopefully leave one day..
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Old July 23 2012, 08:13 PM   #38
NebulaClassGuy
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Timo wrote: View Post
...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.
That is an utterly absurd statement, but if you want to think of the UFP as an enemy force to the Bajorans, go right ahead... I shan't stop you.
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Old July 23 2012, 08:44 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Why should I want to think that?

What I do think is that you should read the quoted text once more...

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Old July 24 2012, 11:28 PM   #40
Sindatur
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

NebulaClassGuy wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.
That is an utterly absurd statement, but if you want to think of the UFP as an enemy force to the Bajorans, go right ahead... I shan't stop you.
I actually question it in the opposite direction. It's natural the Bajorans would join Starfleet who helped them get back on their feet after what the Cardassians did to them.

The Dominion were responsible for what happened to Cardassia and were the occupying force, the Federation helped them to get back on their feet, and were the enemy of the occupying force. Now maybe the Romulan and Klingon prescence and aid could be akin to an Occupation, but, I certainly wouldn't expect the Federation Prescence to be seen in that light.
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Old July 25 2012, 06:08 AM   #41
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

Sindatur wrote: View Post
NebulaClassGuy wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
...Except Bajorans enlisted in the forces of an enemy of the occupying force. In analogy, Cardassians should be enlisting in the Dominion military, rather than the UFP or KE or RSE ones.
That is an utterly absurd statement, but if you want to think of the UFP as an enemy force to the Bajorans, go right ahead... I shan't stop you.
I actually question it in the opposite direction. It's natural the Bajorans would join Starfleet who helped them get back on their feet after what the Cardassians did to them.

The Dominion were responsible for what happened to Cardassia and were the occupying force, the Federation helped them to get back on their feet, and were the enemy of the occupying force. Now maybe the Romulan and Klingon prescence and aid could be akin to an Occupation, but, I certainly wouldn't expect the Federation Prescence to be seen in that light.
I think remnants of the now defunct military dictatorship that ran Cardassia for centuries would be resentful of the Federation's presence on Cardassia. It would be naive to assume that people like Gul Madred would do a 180 and would now support the Federation after the war. I could imagine a new version "The True Way" terrorist group, rising up to oppose the Federation's presence on Cardassia.

Look at it this way, most modern day Germans hate the Nazis, but still a small minority in Germany who support Nazi ideals. There will always people who embrace destructive ideologies.
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Old July 25 2012, 02:02 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

It's natural the Bajorans would join Starfleet who helped them get back on their feet after what the Cardassians did to them.
Except that Ro Laren joined before there was any help from Starfleet. Sito Jaxa in turn was already a graduated Ensign by the time barely a year after "Emissary".

It's probably more like vice versa. Tal Celes apparently became a Starfleet crew member because the organization wanted to support and indeed pamper Bajorans in order to make them appreciate Starfleet more ("Good Shepherd").

Now maybe the Romulan and Klingon prescence and aid could be akin to an Occupation, but, I certainly wouldn't expect the Federation Prescence to be seen in that light.
Why not? Cardassians supposedly didn't bother with constantly terrorizing everybody, either. But they were there, their big military boots trampling on sacred Bajoran soil. That's what the Feds would be doing on Cardassia, too, even if they felt they were there only to help.

Okay, basically the Feds brought war to Bajor, while Cardassia brought war upon itself, so perhaps Cardassians would hate Starfleet less than Bajorans do. But would they really see things from that point of view? They were being trampled on by Starfleet and its allies every time they tried to take the destiny of their culture in their own hands.

Look at it this way, most modern day Germans hate the Nazis, but still a small minority in Germany who support Nazi ideals.
...And plenty of people who think the US and Soviet occupations were no real improvement over the Nazi reign. On the other hand, while the Soviets may have been worse than the Nazis in many places, the communist reign in East Germany carried many benefits that are still missed today.

There will always people who embrace destructive ideologies.
Or resent non-destructive ones.

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Old July 25 2012, 11:19 PM   #43
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

OK, apparently you're basing your arguments on books I've never read, since you are speaking of these unlikely things as fact, so, I have no real knowledge to debate with. I assumed we were basing assumptions upon where the show left off, and your assumptions don't seem very likely to me based upon televised Trek
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Old July 26 2012, 04:15 PM   #44
Edit_XYZ
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

R. Star wrote: View Post
Knight Templar wrote: View Post
I think of the Cardassians during the war as being not unlike Italy to the Axis during World War Two.

While the Italians made a pretense of being tough guys, when the war really got going the Germans had to bail them out.

by the way, it reminds me of Winston Churchills comment about Italy when he learned they were fighting on the German side in WWII.

"It's only fair. We had them last time." (World War One).
Well that's about the most shallow and insulting way to make a point by making a blanket statement against an entire group of people.

To say nothing of the fact it demonstrates your lack of any in depth knowledge of world war II. Italy had a lot of problems, but combrat prowress wasn't one of them. If you had ever read any reports of the campaigns in North Africa you'd know that.

They were lacking in industry and heavy equipment to be certain. Their main problem was they had to project naval and air power over a British dominated Mediterranian, and with so much of their industry keeping them in the game there, thinks like heavy artillery and tanks are secondary.

Before you mention Greece, let me just point out that the campaign in Greece was a testimony both to Mussolini's lack of strategic insight and preparation and the ferocity of the Greek defenders than the Italian people or nation you so openly insulted.

There are parallels to be certain, but maybe you should watch a bit more Trek outside the Dominion war arc and learn about it's themes of tolerance and understanding.
I have no doubt the italians were as brave and resourceful as the english and germans in WW2 - Greece's surprisingly successful resistance against a superior force notwithstanding.

But they still underperfomed martially in that war: they were, clearly, the weakest of the 'great powers' in WW2; their military did lack combat prowess.
There are, of course, objective reasons for it - the italians didn't have the military technology or industry the english or germans had.

On the other hand, nobody gave the english or the germans this technology or this industrial base as a gift. They built it themselves.
The italians didn't - and, during WW2, it showed.


'Tolerance' and 'understanding' is not ignoring historical facts in favor of feel good propaganda just because you don't like said historical facts - or because you don't find them politically correct enough -, R. Star.
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Old July 26 2012, 08:43 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: What likely happened to the Cardassian Union after the war

OK, apparently you're basing your arguments on books I've never read, since you are speaking of these unlikely things as fact, so, I have no real knowledge to debate with.
No, I don't read DS9 books (A Stitch In Time and The 34th Rule notwithstanding). What I say happened to Bajorans vis-á-vis them joining Starfleet is all there explicitly in TNG episodes "Ensign Ro" and "Lower Decks" and in VOY episode "Good Shepherd", as mentioned.

What I suggest is that Cardassians would behave more or less the same way, only with the names of the players changed, because they are facing more or less the same situation - occupation by a force that looks down on them and thinks it's doing them good by occupying, even though the occupied people think they have fallen from the heights of their civilization due to a barbarian invasion.

Bajorans didn't join the Cardassian military when Cardassia occupied them (as far as we know!). Don't you think it rather unlikely that Cardassians would join the UFP military when the UPF occupies them, a priori?

But they still underperfomed martially in that war
Hmm... This is lightyears away from "they made a pretense of being tough guys".

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