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View Poll Results: Jessica Nigri
Thumbs Up 49 53.26%
Thumbs Down 23 25.00%
Thumbs Sideways 20 21.74%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 24 2012, 09:48 AM   #271
RJDiogenes
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Aragorn has asked me to stop posting here, since this thread is way past its shelf life, so this will be it for me.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
It's really hard to reconcile the above with the tune you've been singing up to now. So now sexism really is a problem? Are you acknowledging errors in your previous posts or do you consider your position to be "evolving"?
Neither. It's the same thing I've been saying since forever. As you well know, since we've had discussions like this before in Misc and the BR.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
You want a rational argument? Okay, here I go for a third time: The women of this board have stated, seemingly unanimously, that these threads offend them, and I have concluded from that that these threads are, in general, offensive to women. Would you care to tell me where you think my reason has failed me? Or would you like to ignore it, or go off on some tangent once again? Because that's the core of this debate, it's that simple, and if you're not willing to engage on that core concept then you will have displayed that you're not here to engage in reasoned argument.
The problem with that is that it's not an argument. There was a time when everybody agreed that Gay marriage was bad-- didn't make it true. There are no solid, substantial arguments to support it.

Before I pack it up, one more thought to ponder on the subject of deferring to some female posters without debate: One of the most blatant examples of sexism in society is the fact that most women still change their names when they get married. They obviously have the right to do this and do it of their own free will. Does that mean that we should pretend that it is not the relic of an age when women were property and that it is not inherently sexist?

And that's it. I'm sorry we couldn't have actually discussed this subject.
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Old July 24 2012, 11:19 AM   #272
{ Emilia }
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
TheGodBen wrote: View Post
You want a rational argument? Okay, here I go for a third time: The women of this board have stated, seemingly unanimously, that these threads offend them, and I have concluded from that that these threads are, in general, offensive to women. Would you care to tell me where you think my reason has failed me? Or would you like to ignore it, or go off on some tangent once again? Because that's the core of this debate, it's that simple, and if you're not willing to engage on that core concept then you will have displayed that you're not here to engage in reasoned argument.
The problem with that is that it's not an argument. There was a time when everybody agreed that Gay marriage was bad-- didn't make it true. There are no solid, substantial arguments to support it.
In essence you suggest that you understand the concept of sexism and its societal effects better than every single woman (and almost every other man) in this thread.

From that I must conclude that you consider yourself either...

- more enlightened
or
- more intelligent
or
- more experienced in the matter of sexism and what it constitutes
or
- a combination of the above

... than every single woman posting in this thread.


And from that I conclude that your reasoning and your attitude here is...

- full of shit
or
- incredibly delusional
or
- astonishingly ignorant and self-impressed for no evident good reason
or
- totally blind towards a real structural problem that has existed in society for ages
or
- trapped in an uncomfortable place between your cherished projected public self-image of an oh-so-progressive man and your actual nature with your stubborn sexist and conservative attitudes and arguments displayed in this thread that just won't see progress even when it hits it in the face
or
- a combination of the above.

Since this was your last post in this thread I will look forward to not having to read this terrible, inconsistent, erratic kind of reasoning anymore. But don't worry: I will cope with the insult to our intelligence that your reasoning implies.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:14 PM   #273
Trekker4747
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Not Irish either but the stereotypes/depiction in "Fair Haven" not to mention in "Up the Long Ladder" and "Sub Rosa" in TNG are terrible. Oy.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:20 PM   #274
Chemahkuu
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

I'm from Nothern Ireland so I shouldn't really technically have been offended by the Fair Haven shit, and even though every single show on TV has at some point been guilty of that stereotype, Fair Haven was somewhat worse than a lot of them. Trek at it's most racist, but because it's the "dumb irish" they won't know, right?

And the Harp was the wrong way around.
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Old July 24 2012, 03:29 PM   #275
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

The Fair Haven stuff was indeed shite, but how about that one instruction Janeway gives to the holodeck:

"Delete the wife."
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Old July 24 2012, 05:57 PM   #276
Professor Zoom
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post

And that's it. I'm sorry we couldn't have actually discussed this subject.
I find this a very curious statement. As many people HAVE been discussing it. YOU have been discussing it. Why are you now saying people AREN'T?

I'm also curious of Aragon's thoughts on this...
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Old July 24 2012, 07:29 PM   #277
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

I doubt Aragorn will ever comment on it.

RJ evidently thinks "discussion" means "everybody bows down to RJDiogenes' impeccably perfect worldview."

Lulz.
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Old July 24 2012, 08:02 PM   #278
Trekker4747
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I doubt Aragorn will ever comment on it.
Indeed. He's not commented on it in this thread (only posting the "preview" for next (this) week's "babe" and then posting her (Marion Cotillard.)
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Old July 24 2012, 08:08 PM   #279
MacLeod
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Not Irish either but the stereotypes/depiction in "Fair Haven" not to mention in "Up the Long Ladder" and "Sub Rosa" in TNG are terrible. Oy.
Well "Sub Rosa" was Scottish, not Irish if memory serves but that doesn't deminish the sterotyping effect.

But sterotyping has long been used in TV & Film and not many nationalites have escaped being sterotyped from time to time.
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Old July 24 2012, 09:43 PM   #280
Professor Zoom
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I doubt Aragorn will ever comment on it.
Which to be honest, is disappointing. He seems to have SOME feelings on it, as he has asked RJ to stop posting about it.
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Old July 24 2012, 09:44 PM   #281
Trekker4747
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I doubt Aragorn will ever comment on it.
Which to be honest, is disappointing. He seems to have SOME feelings on it, as he has asked RJ to stop posting about it.
When and where?


EDIT: Nevermind, missed RJ's more recent post discussing about this.
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Old July 25 2012, 08:56 AM   #282
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
**Agrees about the Voyager Irish offensive stereotypes.** I'm not Irish, but I'm of Irish descent and those eps and the one pseudo-Irish TNG ep (Up the Long Ladder) just make me cringe when I see them.
I watched those because of the debate of their offensiveness.

Since I was totally unaware of the stereotypes about the Irish people when I watched them, I neither noticed them, nor connected them with Ireland in any way. Everything felt like another unrealistic depiction of a village in Trek.

But has any Trek ever been immune to that? Everything is based on stereotypes, oversimplifactions, extremely unrealistic representation of real life and people. From the crews, to the alien cultures, to the past every time they travel to it.



Trying to do something as “authentic as possible” is like stating an intention to include as many stereotypes as humanly possible, which is ironically exactly what that Fair Haven episode did.



Sorry, was in a mood to write all that.
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Old July 25 2012, 09:58 PM   #283
TheGodBen
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Aragorn has asked me to stop posting here, since this thread is way past its shelf life, so this will be it for me.
So you'll stop posting in this thread out of respect for Aragorn (who has no power over this thread) even though you claim to be passionate about the subject, but you'll ignore and belittle the grievances of the women of this board even though you claim to be passionate about feminism and equality? Interesting priorities right there.

As for Aragorn, who is clearly reading this thread and cares about what is happening in it, hello. Care to post any thoughts on the debate? Does it bother you at all that the women of this board feel offended by what you do here? Do you ever wonder if it is really worth it?

The problem with that is that it's not an argument. There was a time when everybody agreed that Gay marriage was bad-- didn't make it true. There are no solid, substantial arguments to support it.
That's a false comparison as I was arguing whether these threads are offensive to women, not whether they are objectively damaging to women. Gay marriage may not be objectively damaging to the institution of marriage (whatever the fuck that is), but that doesn't mean that the concept isn't offensive to conservative religious values, because it is. Do I care whether something is offensive to conservative religious people? Not really. Do I care whether something is offensive to women? Yes. And for someone that presents himself as a crusader for women's issues, I'd kinda expect that from you too.

Before I pack it up, one more thought to ponder on the subject of deferring to some female posters without debate: One of the most blatant examples of sexism in society is the fact that most women still change their names when they get married. They obviously have the right to do this and do it of their own free will. Does that mean that we should pretend that it is not the relic of an age when women were property and that it is not inherently sexist?

And that's it. I'm sorry we couldn't have actually discussed this subject.
You really want to discuss this subject, so you decided to take your closing comment into a tangent about marriage names? That's not quite right.

A few years ago, an old girlfriend and I were discussing marriage and she said that if we got married she would change her surname to mine. I was surprised by this as she was a bit of a feminist and I didn't think she'd go for that sort of thing, but then she said it was because she liked the sound of my surname more than her own. That seemed like a sensible way to go about things to me.

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I'm from Nothern Ireland so I shouldn't really technically have been offended by the Fair Haven shit...
In return, you guys got that cool Captain Planet episode set in Belfast.

In fairness, most people agreed with my stance that the Fair Haven episodes were offensive (it helped that they were bad episodes in general), there were just a few people that didn't seem to get it. They thought that the episodes were okay as they displayed "positive" stereotypes, or it wasn't supposed to be the real Ireland but an idyllic holodeck recreation. Those things do nothing to reduce the offensiveness for me.

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
Since I was totally unaware of the stereotypes about the Irish people when I watched them, I neither noticed them, nor connected them with Ireland in any way. Everything felt like another unrealistic depiction of a village in Trek.
Well, the fact that they constantly name-dropped Ireland, Irish locations, and Irish things (without any clue about what they were talking about) should probably have been a clue.
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Old July 26 2012, 05:46 AM   #284
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Aragorn has asked me to stop posting here, since this thread is way past its shelf life, so this will be it for me.
Ah! FINALLY an area you can truly say you share with women:

No testicles.
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Old July 26 2012, 06:03 AM   #285
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Well, the fact that they constantly name-dropped Ireland, Irish locations, and Irish things (without any clue about what they were talking about) should probably have been a clue.
In my defence, I watched the episodes and read the threads in confusing order. Buy yeah, I am geography-challenged, er, I mean uneducated idiot most of the time.
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