Why is Nemesis hated so much?

[LOKAI of CHERON]

BillJ wrote:

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A joke. I don't think it broke one hundred-million worldwide.

Nowhere near! The final worldwide box office gross was $67,312,826

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=startrek10.htm

[BillJ]

LOKAI of CHERON wrote:

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Nowhere near! The final worldwide box office gross was $67,312,826

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=startrek10.htm

Then the ninety million must've been its production budget. Boy Paramount took a short term bath on that one.

[V]

• Some of the plot ideas are retreads of earlier, better Treks, notably 2 and 6.
• Fundamentally, parts of the story are actually good...on paper. The idea that Picard is having empty nest syndrome at Riker leaving, only to find he has a clone-son, and it really plays into the Arthurian myth of Mordred (Arthur's nemesis is the son his enemies created from him using a spell so he never knew he fathered him).
• As Burton and Sirtis have *openly* pointed out, the main fault lies with the director; a man who never saw any Trek episode before, prided himself on this, and had no feel for the tone, characters, or themes of the story.
• Notice that the director cut out plot-heavy scenes to put in more ACTION scenes. *17 minutes of deleted scenes*? and those are only the ones they released. The deleted scenes make it a much better movie, revealing just how insane that director was.
• Thus, I lay the blame squarely on the director. Some of the basic plot wasn't even a bad idea, not necessarily a direct copy of 2 or 6, but required a better director at the helm to achieve.
• Its particularly hated because, even going into it, it was hyped as "a generation's final journey" -- this is the Conclusion to the entire Next Generation era, and it horribly fails to live up to this. And this was our one shot at giving these characters a send-off.

[Silversmok3]

Watch Star Trek:The Undiscovered Country.

Then watch Nemesis immediately afterward. If you have a pulse you'll discover the answer to your question.

[jayrath]

I have one simple observation, and no one can argue against it.

When I saw NEM on opening day, alone, I became so bored that I did not mind going out to the lobby to get my popcorn refilled.

That is absolutely true. And I've been a rabid fan since 1969.

[Irishman]

Caligula wrote:

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Maybe a deathbed repentance, but for now it still sucks just as bad as it did ten years ago. It stands as the only Trek film that didn't leave me with a good feeling as I exited the theater. But this wasn't because it ended on a somber note. It was because I felt these people didn't even try to make a good movie this time.

-The characters don't feel like the ones I grew up with.
-The plot is a hackjob rehash of TWOK (for a really good rehash of TWOK, see 2009's Star Trek).
-Shinzon mindrapes Troi. Mwahaha! He's evil, folks! Don't cha get it? Well, yes I do, and I didn't need this completely pointless and uncomfortable scene as a reminder.
-ANOTHER heretofore undiscovered Soong android?! Bitch, please!
-The Remans being depicted as Urk-hai wannabes.
-The photo of Tom Hardy as young Picard. We're supposed to buy that Picard was bald as a youth (in fact, with even LESS hair than he has now), despite contradictory evidence from the TV series.
-Shinzon needing Picard's blood to save his own life, yet putting this supposed dire need on hold at every turn.
-Data's death. Like Kirk's in Generations, this was completely unnecessary and could have easily been avoided. To make matters worse, with B-4 you're essentially implying the same cop-out used to bring Spock back in TSFS. But at least Spock's death meant something. His death taught Kirk a lesson about no-win scenarios and "how we face death is at least as important as how we face life." Data's death has none of this. It's just BOOM! Data's dead. Moving on, with Riker being inexplicably unable to remember the name of the song "Pop Goes the Weasel." One of the easiest song titles in the world to remember, whether you've just lost a friend or not.
-Two words: dune buggy.
-This was Jerry Goldsmith's least inspiring Trek film score, made even more sad by his death a few years later.

The one positive I can draw from this movie is that the opening scene depicting the assassination of the Romulan Senate is just awesome, and was something I did not expect. Kudos for that one.

+1,000

[JarodRussell]

Kuro Pit wrote:

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Seriously i enjoyed Nemesis. It had alot of good things in it. Though it did have some flaws (B4 for example) I thought it was a good movie, and the Best of all the TNG films.

Because the whole thing...

[Irishman]

Shazam! wrote:

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A little kid stealing a car and then driving off a cliff and then flying out at the last second like fucking Superman and then grabbing hold of a ledge and then climbing back up is more believable than a grown man messing around in a dune buggy?

Well, for me it wasn't so much that it was a dune buggy, rather that the aliens there ALSO had dune buggies with similar weaponry.

Lazy writing.

[Silversmok3]

Why is Nemesis Hated so much, you ask?

Ill prove it. Let the court enter exhibit A:

"The Schimitar was built at a secret base"

The Remans are slaves, and a human science experiment turned prisoner somehow gained their trust and overthrew the Romulans guarding their prison. A stretch, but somewhat plausible.Building a spaceship more advanced than the Federation Flagship at the ROMULAN IMPERIAL CAPITAL?

BULLLLLLLLSHEEEEEIIT. That's like prisoners at Guantanamo Bay constructing a stealth bomber from scratch without the US military finding out.

Exhibit B:

The USS Enterprise under Picard's command was not only the Federation's sharpest starship, but with Picard's battle experience facing the Borg, the Romulans, and other assorted interstellar bad guys its also captained by one seasoned skipper. At least, that's what logic would tell us. In Nemesis, one of Starfleet's most decorated captains charts a course through a nebula deep within enemy territory without backup or support. If Reginald Barclay commanded the ship this severe blunder might make sense, but someone with Picard's war record would know better.

Exhibit C: Shinzon.

Why isn't he dead? What would be the point in keeping him alive? If the Romulan government thought the strategy which begat his existence would provoke a war , then it would make sense to just kill Shinzon outright. Dead men tell no tales, and Shinzon being alive in a prison represented a future liability for the Romulan government. What if he got out and instead of building secret ships and co-opting the local slaves, petitioned Earth for asylum? Talk about a political scandal. Thus the movie's sorry explaination for his custody by saying "they sent me there to die" makes even less sense. If the entire point of Shinzon's exile to Remus was death, why not put a disruptor to his head and end the matter?

Exhibit D; Picard as a 70 year old Jack Bauer.

The scene of Picard beaming over to the damaged Schimitar to shut down the doomsday weapon was pure schlock. Why not beam a phaser into the damn reactor core and have done with it? Assuming that's too much of a bother, it doesn't say much about Starfleet's security corps if out of a crew of hundreds the most combat-capable crewmember is the 61 year old Captain of the ship!

Exhibit E: Kolarus III

So, the Enterprises' sensors can detect a positronic signal from millions of miles away, but they missed the hoard of very sunburnt offroaders with machine guns on their rigs?


Exhibit F: "Praetor" Shinzon?

Just how did wily Shinzon find time to cut deals with the Romulan military while he was toiling in prison? Yes , he served on the Roumulan side for the Dominion War, but what general is going to disobey his chain of command and entire governing authority to swear loyalty to a PRISONER? If the Romulan military wanted a war with the Federation so bad, they'd just nuke the Senate themselves and call the shots. I also rather doubt that a human would ever run the military of a stratified ,xenophobic, and imperialist society like Romulus.

Your Honor, the Prosecution Rests.

[BillJ]

Silversmok3 wrote:

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Let the court enter exhibit A:

"The Schimitar was built at a secret base"

The Remans are slaves, and a human science experiment turned prisoner somehow gained their trust and overthrew the Romulans guarding their prison. A stretch, but somewhat plausible.Building a spaceship more advanced than the Federation Flagship at the ROMULAN IMPERIAL CAPITAL?

BULLLLLLLLSHEEEEEIIT. That's like prisoners at Guantanamo Bay constructing a stealth bomber from scratch without the US military finding out.

It is nothing like "prisoners at Guantanamo Bay constructing a stealth bomber from scratch without the US military finding out", Shinzon was a war hero who had built alliances within the Romulan government and military and no one here knows just how deep those alliances ran.

Exhibit B:

The USS Enterprise under Picard's command was not only the Federation's sharpest starship, but with Picard's battle experience facing the Borg, the Romulans, and other assorted interstellar bad guys its also captained by one seasoned skipper. At least, that's what logic would tell us. In Nemesis, one of Starfleet's most decorated captains charts a course through a nebula deep within enemy territory without backup or support. If Reginald Barclay commanded the ship this severe blunder might make sense, but someone with Picard's war record would know better.

Except we know from both The Wrath of Khan and The Best of Both Worlds that a nebula can make an excellent short term hiding spot and interferes with both shields and sensors. Since a cloak would represent a type of shield, it's quite possible it wouldn't have worked in the nebula either.

I think you owe Picard an apology...

Exhibit C: Shinzon.

Why isn't he dead? What would be the point in keeping him alive? If the Romulan government thought the strategy which begat his existence would provoke a war , then it would make sense to just kill Shinzon outright. Dead men tell no tales, and Shinzon being alive in a prison represented a future liability for the Romulan government. What if he got out and instead of building secret ships and co-opting the local slaves, petitioned Earth for asylum? Talk about a political scandal. Thus the movie's sorry explaination for his custody by saying "they sent me there to die" makes even less sense. If the entire point of Shinzon's exile to Remus was death, why not put a disruptor to his head and end the matter?

Your overthinking this one. The Romulans never figured a human boy could survive the brutal conditions on Remus.

Exhibit D; Picard as a 70 year old Jack Bauer.

The scene of Picard beaming over to the damaged Schimitar to shut down the doomsday weapon was pure schlock. Why not beam a phaser into the damn reactor core and have done with it? Assuming that's too much of a bother, it doesn't say much about Starfleet's security corps if out of a crew of hundreds the most combat-capable crewmember is the 61 year old Captain of the ship!

Patrick Stewart is the star of the series and takes home the biggest paycheck. The audience goes to see him, not some twenty year old marine no one has ever heard of before. This is just the simple fact where a movie isn't going to match reality in this type of situation.

Exhibit E: Kolarus III

So, the Enterprises' sensors can detect a positronic signal from millions of miles away, but they missed the hoard of very sunburnt offroaders with machine guns on their rigs?

Pretty bad abuse of magical technology. Agreed.

Exhibit F: "Praetor" Shinzon?

Just how did wily Shinzon find time to cut deals with the Romulan military while he was toiling in prison? Yes , he served on the Roumulan side for the Dominion War, but what general is going to disobey his chain of command and entire governing authority to swear loyalty to a PRISONER? If the Romulan military wanted a war with the Federation so bad, they'd just nuke the Senate themselves and call the shots. I also rather doubt that a human would ever run the military of a stratified ,xenophobic, and imperialist society like Romulus.

You'll be surprised who people will willingly follow when they believe things aren't going their way. Hitler anyone?

[Vasquez Rocks]

BillJ wrote:

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Patrick Stewart is the star of the series and takes home the biggest paycheck. The audience goes to see him, not some twenty year old marine no one has ever heard of before. This is just the simple fact where a movie isn't going to match reality in this type of situation.

My explanation: A 70 year old in the 24th century is like a 40 year old in the 21st century. Advances in medicines in the future is quite an amazing thing.

[LOKAI of CHERON]

Vasquez Rocks wrote:

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My explanation: A 70 year old in the 24th century is like a 40 year old in the 21st century. Advances in medicines in the future is quite an amazing thing.

You beat me to it, Vasquez Rocks! For me, this is not only a reasonable explanation - but extremely credible within the established precepts of the Star Trek universe.

[Captaindemotion]

Yeah, I don't see the problem either. We had 60 something Kirk still doing the fisticuffs a century earlier in TUC so it's no problem to imagine someone of Picard's age doing so a century later.

Plus it helps that Patrick Stewart was in pretty good shape during those movies, unlike Shatner. He had impressive biceps in FC and INS.

[Jeyl]

BillJ wrote:

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Patrick Stewart is the star of the series and takes home the biggest paycheck. The audience goes to see him, not some twenty year old marine no one has ever heard of before. This is just the simple fact where a movie isn't going to match reality in this type of situation.

I wanted to see the crew, not just Picard. The only reason he was taking home the biggest paycheck was that he was now a bankable actor thanks to the Xmen movies. Everyone thought that Patrick Stewart alone would be enough to rake in the money needed to make Star Trek Nemesis a success.

• The writers wrote the story around him.
• They made a villain specifically for him.
• They indulged Stewart's love of driving by incorporating the random and pointless dune buggy chase.
• They turned him into a brashing Han Solo by shooting bad guys in hallways with a hand gun in one hand, and a rifle in the other.
• They write a stupid justification for Picard stopping Shinzon alone for no other reason than "it's something he has to do" i.e. It's Picard's show.
• They retcon one of Picard's biggest character growths from the TNG series run by having Picard tell Shinzon that his heart is exactly the same as his.
• Instead of a nice farewell shot with all the crew, or at least a shot of the new crew of the Enterprise (which was shot), or Picard giving us one final speech on what he believes in, they end a whole era with a close up shot of Picard just walking down a hallway in silence.

And what did the film makers achieve by having Nemesis focus entirely on Picard? Something that William Shatner almost did when he directed Star Trek V.

KILL THE FRANCHISE

This movie turned Star Trek into something that the fans didn't like, and something that new comers couldn't get into. And the ironic thing is that all of these missteps were done for the sake of making this movie appealing to the mass market. YOU CAN'T DO THAT when you're hyping your story to be the end of an entire era!

[JarodRussell]

BillJ wrote:

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Patrick Stewart is the star of the series and takes home the biggest paycheck. The audience goes to see him, not some twenty year old marine no one has ever heard of before. This is just the simple fact where a movie isn't going to match reality in this type of situation.

I think that's vastly overrated. People go when the trailer and promotional material interests them, and/or if the word of mouth is good. That that is ENTIRELY independent of the actor. Sure, you can draw a lot people in with big names. But if the film is good as a whole, people will watch it, regardless of how big the names are. Yeah, there are some who go "What? No Picard? I'm out!" but most people say "Woah, holy shit, what a great trailer! I have to see this!"